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RAW via HDMI is coming!


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#1 bubffm

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 03:44 PM

Interesting stuff:

https://youtu.be/lsPd_DKY324
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#2 SwiftFF5

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 04:46 AM

Wow, the technology is moving forward quickly.  Thanks for posting that.


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#3 bubffm

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 05:10 AM

Yes. What I find interesting is that Nikon are the first to move on this! They are a total nobody so far on the video side of things.  If this works out, it could catapult their Z6 right at the top for mirrorless cams to consider for video.

 

Still needs a housing for the Ninja V though to take it underwater...



#4 thetrickster

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 06:11 AM

If this works out, it could catapult their Z6 right at the top for mirrorless cams to consider for video.

 

Still needs a housing for the Ninja V though to take it underwater...

 

 

The Z6 does look a very interesting contender going forward - I feel the 2nd round of Mk2 bodies will be a better bet mind in 2020 - as all of the new MIL FF cameras all seem have issues being gen 1 versions. 4K crops, no 4K@60, AF issues, battery life etc - much like when Sony starting down the A7 road.

 

But man, I was shocked when I saw the news - Nikon leading the way! Its going to put a lot of pressure on the other companies - how will Canon, Sony and Panasonic protect their (expensive) cinema cameras from their own cheaper DSLR style cameras - as if they don't add HDMI RAW output to complete with Nikon -  and the raw performance of the Nikon is good - it will eat a lot of both their C300, EVA, FS7 cinema lines and also their EOS-R, A7 and S1 models going forward. Good play Nikon...(they don't have any cinema cameras to protect..)

 

Sadly for the Z6, if you are looking at the Nauticam housing solution, they potentially might have to release a new revision of their current housing to support the new M24 port found on the NA-XT3, as the Nauticam MicroHDMI cable (and M18 port) is only able to support HDMI1.4 specs - not HDMI2.0 - So unless HDMI RAW is very efficient and able to run at below 10Gbps, the current housing won't be able to support HDMI Raw.

 

Exciting times ahead, looking forward to 2020 - 8K, HDMI RAW, Full Frame - lots of goodies :)


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#5 Interceptor121

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:17 AM

I have to confess I have been utterly confused by that video. 

 

ProRes RAW is a new codec that Apple has developed see white paper https://www.apple.co...White_Paper.pdfas it compresses before demosaicing the image this becomes harder to decode, the bitrate is also variable not fixed anymore.

 

The actual bit rate of ProRes Raw is lower than 422 HQ and in order to record it the starting point is the same uncompressed signal coming from the HDMI port.

 

Right now Atomos can record ProRes HQ at 60 fps from the GH5 at 10 bits which means the camera is transmitting 14.9 Gbps. I am unsure why ProRes RAW would be unique to Nikon as this is a codec most likely it will work with any camera including the GH5. Unless the Nikon is able to transmit uncompressed 12 bit RGB I don't see anything specific to Nikon that would enable or not things to happen

 

I am sorry but this seems more like Nikon is forging some alliances with Atomos as they lag in video and want to use this to enter someone else space instead of developing something revolutionary...

 

In terms of limitation the HDMI micro adapter will probably reveal itself to be a limitation for 60 fps


Edited by Interceptor121, 14 February 2019 - 11:18 AM.

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#6 Interceptor121

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 01:16 PM

The Nikon Z6 current firmware is limited to 3840x2160@30 fps there is no reference to the camera outputting 60 fps if connected to an external recorder so my guess is it won't

 

Atomos is clearly referenced in the manual under 'recorders'


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#7 bubffm

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 01:26 PM

I am by no means the super-expert on this but I'd say your assumption that the ProRes RAW codec will be "inferior" to ProRes HQ because HQ has a higher data-rate is somewhat flawed:

 

First of all, ProRes HQ is now 12 years old. It is not surprising that a codec developed in 2018 would be quite a bit more efficient. Secondly, RAW as such is actually more efficient to store as it needs to store only the sensor data and no "interpretative" information about the strength of the color channels, their saturation, white balance etc etc.  

 

What I understand is that RAW is even easier to process in-camera on a like-to-like basis, because it is putting all the computing-intensive tasks into post. This is why it appears to be possible to transmit up to 12bit through HDMI to the recorder. Pretty impressive!

 

You are certainly right that RAW-via-HDMI is nothing specific to Nikon. Its been pioneered by Atomos and they have invited all camera manufacturers to find a way to open up their cams to the technology.  It's quite a brilliant strategic move by Nikon to be first on this imho, as that puts them on the "video-map" at once.  I would also place a big bet on who will be last to adopt this technology:  Sony and Canon.  Both have already in the past been very protective of their "Pro" camcorder-range by not offering 10 bits in 4k etc etc. 

 

I would think that Panasonic will be the next company to be open this root.  Probably one to come for the GH6. Maybe even via firmware update to the GH5?

 

The micro-adapter is a Nauticam specific "problem". I would think if they come up with a housing for the Ninja V they'll find a way around it. HDMI 1.4 won't cut it.

 

Some very exciting stuff for sure!


Edited by bubffm, 14 February 2019 - 01:28 PM.


#8 Interceptor121

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 03:16 PM

I am by no means the super-expert on this but I'd say your assumption that the ProRes RAW codec will be "inferior" to ProRes HQ because HQ has a higher data-rate is somewhat flawed:

 

 

 

Where did I say that? The contrary ProRes is a post processing codec in need of update for capture bitrate is nothing to do with quality it was just to indicate that the compression is more efficient as it is done differently and has variable bitrate.

 

The ProRes RAW support I think is a choice not a limitation. The GH5 can already output 10 bit uncompressed RGB if the Atomos recorder does not produce ProRes RAW out of it is because there is a restriction imposed on it maybe by a mutual agreement between Panasonic and Atomos. I cannot see why an uncompressed RGB output should make any difference between ProRes HQ RAW or any other code you may wish to use

 

In terms of bulkhead limitations if you can record 4k@60p today then there is no limitation


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#9 Interceptor121

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 03:35 PM

If instead the Nauticam cables only support HDMI 1.4 then in any case you are restricted to 24/25/30p in essence we need to see the real quality of ProRes RAW vs other codecs


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#10 Interceptor121

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 03:55 PM

Having read a bit more on the subject I think I have been talking rubbish. If the camera has to produce data without debayering than it needs entirely to skip RGB processing and send raw data through HDMI

In terms of bandwidth HDMI 1.4 should not be a limitation as RAW 10 bit is actually 10 bits while RGB is 30 bit so you use 1/3 of the space plus metadata

It remains to be seen the actual improvement that you experience which should be most notably around lack of compression artefacts


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#11 Interceptor121

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 10:55 PM

And by the way none of this is trivial if the camera sends a RAW file through HDMI it wont have enough processing file to record or display anything on the LCD. The recorder will need to be able to demoisaic the file and apply the lut necessary to view the file in RGB to be able to display it on the screen.
Unless you have dedicated video processing super miniaturised it is unlikely that you will be able to pack all of this in a single unit

Going back to the Nikon Z6 a 10 bit raw file at 30 fps will be around 6 gbps so the micro hdmi or hdmi 1.4 should not be a limitation. When you look at 50/60 fps then you are in hdmi 2.0 zone

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#12 thetrickster

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:46 PM

So yesterday, Nikon confirmed that the HDMI RAW output will be at 12bits at UHD or FullHD (I'm not sure if they mean, thats selectable, or they haven't decided!)

 

https://twitter.com/...179255669596160


Edited by thetrickster, 14 February 2019 - 11:46 PM.

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#13 thetrickster

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:50 PM

And by the way none of this is trivial if the camera sends a RAW file through HDMI it wont have enough processing file to record or display anything on the LCD. The recorder will need to be able to demoisaic the file and apply the lut necessary to view the file in RGB to be able to display it on the screen.

 

The Shogun inferno can do this with the RAW signal being sent via SDI, so if the RAW signal is the same - I presume the Ninja V will be able to do so too.

 

Speaking with Atomos, it seems the current Inferno's won't be getting HDMI RAW (they are incoming FW updates soon thou) due to the HDMI chipset used in the NinjaV being a custom Atomos silicon, more than off the shelf chips in the Inferno's.


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#14 Interceptor121

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:57 PM

I don't think SDI or HDMI is the greatest issue the fact is you need a quite strong processing that can take the signal encode it and record it in ProRes RAW and then take this demosaic decode the LUT and convert into RGB for display on the screen

 

Camera like RED etc that are much bigger have space to host dedicated circuits and also to cool the whole thing down I do not see this to become short term something you can house in a DSLR type body but it could be possible to transmit raw data through HDMI and do it outside as long as you know how to code decode on the HDMI medium the cable won't be the issue


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#15 Interceptor121

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 12:03 AM

So yesterday, Nikon confirmed that the HDMI RAW output will be at 12bits at UHD or FullHD (I'm not sure if they mean, thats selectable, or they haven't decided!)

 

https://twitter.com/...179255669596160

 

This makes sense as Nikon process 12 bit and 14 bit RAW I would not see how they would implement a 10 bit specifically for this. Whilst their on board RGB processing is 10 bit out

 

Now we need to understand if there is any crop involved and what frame rate. If you take the 20 MPx sensor at 12 bit it generates nearly 8 gbps at 30 fps so you are at the limit of HDMI 1.4 and I do not think Nikon has a 2.0 interface. Also the frame generation would need to be done by the camera in continuous mode so it needs to be capable to sustain 30 fps constant in log

 

So if you have a shogun inferno and a Nikon you should be able to create UHD 30 fps files in N-log which is the Nikon version of log over prores RAW


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#16 bubffm

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 11:07 AM

So yesterday, Nikon confirmed that the HDMI RAW output will be at 12bits at UHD or FullHD (I'm not sure if they mean, thats selectable, or they haven't decided!)
 
https://twitter.com/...179255669596160


12bit Raw isnt too bad to start with for a camera of that size ;-))