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Is full size DX "Done"?


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#41 jmauricio

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:38 AM

Canon and Nikon cannot let DX disappear. It is far too important to them in the volume end of the segment. Neither one can afford to abandon it, nor will they. These are business decisions. They will give the market what sells. There will almost certainly be new bodies and lenses well into the future. However, the SLR DX form factor is being challenged for the first time with mirrorless & low cost full frame. Those enthusiast that can afford it will likely move to the SLR FF form factor. That affordability will extend wider as FF becomes less expensive as is happening now. The rest of the market (well, those wanting more than a compact or Smartphone) will then choose Mirrorless or SLR DX. I think the reality Nikon and Canon face is simply competition. Canon has thrown their towel into the DX mirrorless form factor, probably rightly so. I think Nikon is playing a dangerous game with the J/V series. If m4/3 or DX mirrorless eat into the SLR DX market at all, Nikon comes out a loser.

#42 johnspierce

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:58 PM

The problem I have with the current APC Mirrorless offerings are they still use the same size lenses as my larger DSLR which in most cases has better button ergonomics. I'm with Alex on this one -- if you are going to give me a small body, make the accompanying lenses small too which means smaller, more high performance sensor.

I have the FT1 adapter for my Nikon V1 which is pretty cool because on occasion I can hang my 105mm F2.8 VR or other full size lens on it for some very nice photos, but it is kind of like putting a pot roast on a popsicle stick. I wouldn't want that to be my only choice; the V1 10-30mm and 30-110mm are more appropriate for most shots with that camera. On my brother-in-law's OMD the lenses feel "size appropriate" to me. Just my opinion, obviously lots of people are buying NEX cameras, so maybe that's the way to go.
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#43 rtrski

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:08 PM

The funniest part of this whole discussion to me is the bit about if DX / APS-C SLR's disappear, most of you would prefer to go mirrorless for smaller lenses and perhaps even to smaller high performance sensors.

Yet just a couple years ago the 4/3rds system's 2x crop got reamed by many for being....smaller than even a DX or APS-C sensor. Now m4:3rds seems to be getting most of the mirrorless commentary in this thread.

How times change. :) Not intending to bash anyone, just find it curious.

Current rig: Sony SLT-alpha55 in Ikelite housing, Sigma 105mm f2.8 DC Macro w/ Ike 5505.58 flat port or Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-5.6 DC HSM behind UWCamStuff custom 5" mini-dome. Dual INON z240 Type IVs triggered with DS51 for TTL mimicry, or DS51 alone with home-made ringflash assy for macro.

 

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#44 Otara

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:10 PM

I dont think its so much 'cannot' as theres no compelling reason to go to a m4/3 format for most of the advantages you get with a mirrorless setup. The whole point of M format with canon is to make the lens even smaller again without changing the sensor size, while still offering access to a massive available lens range.

Conversely, Nikons option is to go smaller again. Its M4/3 that is ending up in the middle really, not APS/DX, or at least thats the way Canikon is trying to go with the market.

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#45 Otara

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:12 PM

The funniest part of this whole discussion to me is the bit about if DX / APS-C SLR's disappear, most of you would prefer to go mirrorless for smaller lenses and perhaps even to smaller high performance sensors.

Yet just a couple years ago the 4/3rds system's 2x crop got reamed by many for being....smaller than even a DX or APS-C sensor. Now m4:3rds seems to be getting most of the mirrorless commentary in this thread.

How times change. Posted Image Not intending to bash anyone, just find it curious.


Because the early sensors sucked by comparison, the lens range was pretty ordinary, and there wasnt that much of a cost advantage. Speaking as someone who managed to sell his Olympus range not too long before 4/3 got abandoned in favour of M4/3, it kind of deserved a reaming as being too early and not good enough.

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#46 Phil Rudin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:38 AM

I think this is a lot of do about not much.

Some issues that may not have been addressed here are the fact that Nikon just passed 70 million lenses none of which were designed for mirrorless cameras. The cost difference between APS-C and Full frame is chaning but you still have two very different price points. A large number of photographers are not yet willing to give up on optical view finders which are still superior in favor of EVF's, if this were the case we would all be asking for Sony DSLR housings. Only a small section of the mirrorless camera market are cameras with an EVF though the number is growing. Many people like the idea that smaller sensors extend lens focal length. If larger sensors were a total panacea for photographers we would all be shooting Hasselblad or PhaseOne cameras which by the way are both supported by Nauticam housings and ports.

I also think a lot of this dissussion has been brought on by the release of these "full frame" cameras at Photokina. Photokina is held every other year and has traditionally been a show where the most advanced "pro" equipment has been announced like the offerings from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Hasselblad and others at this show.

The CES/PMA show is in January in Las Vages, this is more of a consumor type of show and I would expect to see any new offerings in the APS-C range at that show.

While I expect to see sub full frame cameras change over the next few years I think it will be a long time before we see them go away in favor of mirrorless cameras.

#47 pKai

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:26 PM

If larger sensors were a total panacea for photographers we would all be shooting Hasselblad or PhaseOne cameras which by the way are both supported by Nauticam housings and ports.


I have a lot of respect for you, Phil, but I have to take exception with that statement. A lot of (most?) serious and pro photographers would be shooting exactly those systems if they didn't cost more than their homes and weren't almost impossible to travel with absent a staff of assistants.

OTOH, I agree with you that sub-frame (meaning smaller than APS-C) won't likely replace DSLRs any time soon, if ever.... I do believe that APS-C mirrorless offerings such as the EOS-M will put a dent in the consumer-level DSLR market above as well as underwater. They may even become the dominant force in this segment a few years out.

A lot of people, myself included, started underwater photography with an LCD/EVF and never knew the joy of an optical viewfinder underwater. They won't miss it when they move from P&S or m4/3 to APS-C mirrorless.

Due to a fortunate quirk of fate, I shifted from m4/3 to a FF 5D2 for my underwater setup. Topside, I've been a Canon SLR shooter most of my life. On dry land, holding a camera 2 feet in front of my face is a most unnatural act. Underwater, OTOH, it seems perfectly normal because that's all I ever knew. I have to say, even with the 5D2, I find myself using live-view quite a bit. Whenever quick focus is not required and/or my position relative to the camera makes it hard or impossible to look through the viewfinder, the LCD happily comes on. Maybe a $1500 angle finder will cure this.... but so far, I'm not itching to get one.

I'm looking to hit the bridge this weekend.... shoot me a PM if you're into it....

Edited by m1mm1m, 04 October 2012 - 12:28 PM.


#48 Phil Rudin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:54 PM

I am teaching a Macro class for Reef Photo starting in about twenty minutes and we will be at the bridge Fri, Sat and Sunday. So yes i will be there. I will post on the other issues you address another time.

Phil

#49 Glasseye Snapper

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

How APS-C DSLRs rank relative to FF DSLR and mirrorless in a few years depends a lot on the rate of progress in each segment. Mirrorless is still young both in terms of marketing and technology. As one poster mentioned, not long ago mirrorless and 43rd sensors where looked down upon and now they create a lot of excitement. A big change has been a race to the top. No longer aiming for P&S upgraders but competing directly with DSLR and vying for advanced users. Apparently marketing showed that that is where the margins are and it is probably no surprise to see Sony, Olympus and Panasonic coming out with some very interesting, innovative, and high-priced bodies. The latter two are also upping the ante with lenses such as the new constant F2.8 zooms from Panasonic and the recent or announced range of high quality F1.8 primes, as well as the 60mm macro from Olympus. An influx of more demanding users will only create a bigger market for higher quality in all parts that make up a complete camera system.

So where does mirrorless still need to improve to really compete with DSLR?
- Viewfinder: the EVF in the NEX 7 and EM-5 are greatly improved over earlier versions and Toshiba just released a higher resolution version of the one used in the EM-5. Optical finders have been around for ages with little room for major improvements, at least not cheap ones. EVFs are basically electronics and as volumes go up and the competitive pressure is on to make them better chances are high that an EVF that matches or exceeds the utility of an OVF emerges while cost goes down. EVFs also create opportunities for more informative displays beyond what an OVF can offer.
- Autofocus: CDAF has already improved to the point where it is competitive with DSLR for static subjects. On-chip PDAF is a mixed bag with Nikon's mirrorless apparently doing best and the Canon EOS-M doing very poorly. We will find out what Sony's engineers have been able to accomplish shortly. But this is really just the first generation, compared to decades of development in DSLR autofocus. DSLR may well remain king but I expect the gap to close relatively quickly to the point where it becomes a non-issue for most buyers, it arguably already is, especially if DSLRs continue to lag on life-view and video autofocus.
- Other issues: body ergonomics, battery life ... but I don't think these are big ones for the bulk of buyers

Of course DSLRs have continued to get better as well but being a mature technology there is less room for improvement. So my tea leaves are telling me the following: 1) APS-C DSLRs have peaked and will fade out over the next decade, with perhaps a low volume production remaining for special user groups. 2) The bulk of the loss will be a move to mirrorless, with the rest moving up to full frame. 3) Nikon has to start again with a larger sensor, most likely APS-C, mirrorless model. 4) Canon is off to a poor start aiming for the well covered low-end of the market while all the other players are aggressively courting the high-end users. They will get it right eventually and use their resources and marketing cloud to get back into the game. 5) Sony will be fine and if they can push their lens line-up they will be doing great. 6) m43 will do fine for now but may have to compete more on price if/when their lens system advantage becomes smaller.

With so many detailed predictions I am bound to be wrong on most of them but had I know them to be right they wouldn't be predictions and it wouldn't have been half the fun :)
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#50 Paul Kay

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:50 AM

APS dSLR are a compromise. a small format camera with a full format bayonet and flange to sensor distance which compromised lenses being built specifically for their format. They fulfilled a role but should now be on the wane as smaller format cameras with more appropriately sized bodies, bayonets, flange to sensor diistances and suitably sized lenses start to mature. Logically a better designed uncompromised system should displace a compromised one. (That said there have always been lesser systems which have wone out until something better came along - VHS usurped the 'better' Betacam until usurped itself by DVD). But in terms of cameras in an extremely competitive market I suspect that, as was commented in the last post, APS dSLRs have peaked and will now fade.
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#51 Scubysnaps

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:22 AM

For NEX users there is this Rokion (samyang?) 8mm Fisheye (http://www.amazon.co..._hu-rd_add_1_dp). Its not ideal. Tho it's inexpensive, it's both manual focus and aperture. Maybe a F11 or F16 setting for depth of field and fixed focus will allow plenty of opportunities until something better comes along.


I've ben thinking about this - could the NEX focus peaking feature be used for focus and aperture set for max DOF as you say
Cheers
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#52 jmauricio

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:40 AM

I've ben thinking about this - could the NEX focus peaking feature be used for focus and aperture set for max DOF as you say


Phil Rudin was the one who told me about it. I am thinking about renting it for this weekend and testing it in the pool. will let you know what I find out.

#53 Scubysnaps

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:33 AM

Cool, please do, especailly the focus peaking :)
Cheers
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#54 Scubysnaps

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:27 AM

to add... I found this review that may be good news

http://www.thephoblo...sheye-sony-nex/
Focusing

All focusing with this lens is done manually via the very large and well built focusing ring. Unfortunately, there is no depth of field preview scale but there is a distance scale. However, I tried focusing all with Sony’s peaking function, which seemed to work fairly well but still not the best from my initial tests.
After lots of use, I found that it is because the lens is a bit soft wide open. Once stopped down to F5.6 or F4, you’ll have no problems at all. Additionally, to get the best results you’ll need to use Sony’s peaking function and the magnification function together.
Cheers
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#55 John Bantin

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:37 AM

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what you shoot on. It's the final result that counts.

I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?

 

#56 rtrski

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:23 PM

Of course. But a bit of prognostication regarding where the industry is going in the next couple of years might make you rethink a new lens purchase in the near term....

Current rig: Sony SLT-alpha55 in Ikelite housing, Sigma 105mm f2.8 DC Macro w/ Ike 5505.58 flat port or Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-5.6 DC HSM behind UWCamStuff custom 5" mini-dome. Dual INON z240 Type IVs triggered with DS51 for TTL mimicry, or DS51 alone with home-made ringflash assy for macro.

 

Topside, unhoused: Sony SLT-alpha99, Sigma 150-500mm + 1.4TC (Saving for Sony 70-400 G2), Sigma 15mm diagonal fish, Sony 24-70mm f2.8 CZ, Tamron 180mm f2.8 Macro...all the gear and nary a clue...


#57 Scubysnaps

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:43 PM

Of course. But a bit of prognostication regarding where the industry is going in the next couple of years might make you rethink a new lens purchase in the near term....

You're lucky to just have to think about a lens! I want a new rig in Santa's sack! Lets hope his elves are working fast!
Cheers
Paul

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#58 Otara

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:51 AM

Its all guesswork in the end and cameras are ultimately pretty expensive investments that drop in value pretty quickly. Future proofing is going to always be pretty dicey at best.

Committing to a new system would be another story, but again, I doubt anyone can really be too certain how useful anything will be in 5 years unless its full frame and higher end lenses. Micro 4/3's is doing well now but could be in a very different place over the periods discussed.

In my view decisions are better based on what current priorities are rather than trying to do the crystal ball thing too much - eg image quality vs size, overall cost, lens ranges that are desired, things like that.

Otara

#59 rumblefish

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:28 AM

I'm on crossroads here. It's time to replace my D80/Subal rig which served me well from 2008 until now (almost 5 years). I always considered this an in-between setup, I used an S801 in a Subal housing for 14 years before that. I own one DX lens, the rest is full frame. The 14mm wide angle needs replacement. So I will probably be better off switching back to full frame (D600 sounds interesting) and investing in a new wide angle and big dome while I'm at it. At least I'll have a system that I can expand as need be, until the days when I need something small enough to hold between my teeth as I crawl in and out of the water on all fours.
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#60 John Bantin

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:39 AM

I'm on crossroads here. It's time to replace my D80/Subal rig which served me well from 2008 until now (almost 5 years). I always considered this an in-between setup, I used an S801 in a Subal housing for 14 years before that. I own one DX lens, the rest is full frame. The 14mm wide angle needs replacement. So I will probably be better off switching back to full frame (D600 sounds interesting) and investing in a new wide angle and big dome while I'm at it. At least I'll have a system that I can expand as need be, until the days when I need something small enough to hold between my teeth as I crawl in and out of the water on all fours.
--Rob


I've got a Hugyfot and D700 going, if you are interested!

I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?