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IS IT WORTH IT? GH5s - No Stabilization


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#1 gearbow_36218

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:53 PM

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There is a lot to like about the GH5s Cinema 4k 4:2:2 400 mbs , great low light and frankly I have been patiently waiting to Pre-Order this to make it my underwater video rig but with the announcement that there is no in body stabilization is this worth getting as a all around performer for  underwater video.  A steady hand seems to be very important even with stabilization but even small bumps can ruin a shot so for you guys that mainly shoot video is the GH5 going to win out here because of it's stabilization or be patient and wait to see Sony's offering with the A7S Mark III, although not liking what I hear about ease of WB with the Sony.  I could go on and on but really just want a expert opinion on this as i have no other experience with anything other than a GoPro but am ready to spend some dollars on a real video rig.  What are the chances you think they update this next year and have the IBIS after i've drop 15 g's  on a GH5 housing and video recorder with housing? 

 



#2 Pajjpen

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 12:47 AM

If the choice is between this and the Sony I’d definietly go with this one as Sony colors are far from satisfying. I’m still juggling between getting a gh5 or getting the 5s, for the exact same reason as u are.. ibis vs no ibis.
I guess you could get a lens with stabilisation although my favourite wa lens (the 7-14) does not have this.. and is lens stabilisation enough?
It’s a good question and I think it boils down to what you wanna use the camera for. A lot of deep shots of say sharks where they don’t come close enough for lights to be of any use..then yes, I’d definietly say it’s worth it but I’m far from an expert on the subject.

#3 Davide DB

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 12:49 AM

Hi Mike,

 

It would be better discuss this on the video & gear sub-forum cause this on is more targeted on photography so probably you will get more in topic replies there...

Anyway. This is a pro video camera. While it comes out form Panasonic consumer division it shares a lot of features with Pana EVA camera.

Pro video cameras don't have IBIS.

Camera IBIS it's not a firmware feature or upgrade. It's an hardware feature so you will not get it via a sw upgrade.

There is a valid reason they did not equipped this video camera with IBIS: sensor temperature. In layman's term, in body image stabilization on these beast is obtained physically moving the lens or the sensor.

This brings two problems: AF performance issues and higher sensor temperature (ask Sony about camera temperature while recording high bitrate at 4K).

As you can see from specs and test in both cases the GH5s perform better than Gh5. Af is better because sensor is steady and sensor is cooler which means bigger DR/cleaner image.

 

Finally, IS IT WORTH IT?

 

Nothing personal. Actually I see on the net thousand of nouvelle Christopher Nolan and Howard Hall that cannot express themselves without no less than a Red.

Basically if you have a Gopro, a used GH4 kit is for you and for 90% of us. If you have the budget or you are a gadget-addicted (like me) go for a GH5.

 

Bye


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#4 kc_moses

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:12 AM

I believe the GH5s do not have the IBIS because of the need of multi-aspect ratio. As for which one to get for Underwater, the GH5 with IBIS is the way to go. The IBIS is critical when you pan and follow a creature. You're not running with the GH5 so you won't see those Jello warping effect of IBIS people say when use on land.

 

If you're concern about noise, just supplement with high power video light, or there is solution at post that yield very good result, such as NeatVideo plugin. The GH5 also shoot 6K anamorphic should you grow to incorporate more land base video. GH5s just doesn't have enough megapixel to do that.

 

Also, it's critical to learn to shoot manual focus (utilizing "Back button focus" technique), so all the DFD Auto-focus issue of the GH5 shouldn't be much concern.

 

If you're not in a hurry to upgrade, and can wait for a year or 1.5 year, Panasonic should have an 8K camera out just in time for the Summer Olympic.



#5 dreifish

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:48 AM

Noise has basically never been an issue for me shooting the GH5 underwater. You can usually open up to F5.6, so ISO never really goes over 1600. So.. for underwater use, I see no advantage to the GH5s over the GH5. The lack of in-body image stabilization is a big negative, on the other hand.



#6 thetrickster

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 07:15 AM

I agree with almost everything everyone is saying.

 

The lack of IBIS is a major bummer for me, wasn't expecting them to remove that. But it seems its not due to the sensor size or aspect - it seems the target audience for this camera where screaming for the removal of IBIS, as it was ruining in-car, on-gimbal shots - so Panasonic listened.

 

Pajjen raised a valid point for deep / dark ambient shooting where a clean high ISO would be really useful and where lights wouldn't reach.

 

If the visibility is right, I really enjoy videoing wreck exteriors, where even super powerful lights wouldn't reach, so potentially having a super high iso - and clean would be cool.

 

Will find out when the body arrives.


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#7 Pajjpen

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 08:39 AM

I agree with almost everything everyone is saying.
 
The lack of IBIS is a major bummer for me, wasn't expecting them to remove that. But it seems its not due to the sensor size or aspect - it seems the target audience for this camera where screaming for the removal of IBIS, as it was ruining in-car, on-gimbal shots - so Panasonic listened.
 
Pajjen raised a valid point for deep / dark ambient shooting where a clean high ISO would be really useful and where lights wouldn't reach.
 
If the visibility is right, I really enjoy videoing wreck exteriors, where even super powerful lights wouldn't reach, so potentially having a super high iso - and clean would be cool.
 
Will find out when the body arrives.

Looking forward to seeing those shots and compare it to the gh5 shots that are out there!

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#8 adamtaylor

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:31 AM

I agree with almost everything everyone is saying.
 
The lack of IBIS is a major bummer for me, wasn't expecting them to remove that. But it seems its not due to the sensor size or aspect - it seems the target audience for this camera where screaming for the removal of IBIS, as it was ruining in-car, on-gimbal shots - so Panasonic listened.
 
Pajjen raised a valid point for deep / dark ambient shooting where a clean high ISO would be really useful and where lights wouldn't reach.
 
If the visibility is right, I really enjoy videoing wreck exteriors, where even super powerful lights wouldn't reach, so potentially having a super high iso - and clean would be cool.
 
Will find out when the body arrives.

I am also looking forward to any deep & dark dive footage. Deep wreck exteriors would be similar low-light conditions to what I am trying to shoot, and I find the GH5 sorely lacking.

Off-camera lighting helps (filming a diver from a distance) but the dark areas have terrible grain at higher ISO

Still on the fence regarding GH5s


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#9 gearbow_36218

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:55 PM

Hi Mike,

 

It would be better discuss this on the video & gear sub-forum cause this on is more targeted on photography so probably you will get more in topic replies there...

Anyway. This is a pro video camera. While it comes out form Panasonic consumer division it shares a lot of features with Pana EVA camera.

Pro video cameras don't have IBIS.

Camera IBIS it's not a firmware feature or upgrade. It's an hardware feature so you will not get it via a sw upgrade.

There is a valid reason they did not equipped this video camera with IBIS: sensor temperature. In layman's term, in body image stabilization on these beast is obtained physically moving the lens or the sensor.

This brings two problems: AF performance issues and higher sensor temperature (ask Sony about camera temperature while recording high bitrate at 4K).

As you can see from specs and test in both cases the GH5s perform better than Gh5. Af is better because sensor is steady and sensor is cooler which means bigger DR/cleaner image.

 

Finally, IS IT WORTH IT?

 

Nothing personal. Actually I see on the net thousand of nouvelle Christopher Nolan and Howard Hall that cannot express themselves without no less than a Red.

Basically if you have a Gopro, a used GH4 kit is for you and for 90% of us. If you have the budget or you are a gadget-addicted (like me) go for a GH5.

 

Bye

 

I agree this post could be moved to different forum if admin is looking. 

 

I understand the IBIS does not help the heat dissipation and heat can cause noise.  There are Pro Lvl or broadcast cameras that use IBIS, No?   and the new EVA1  uses electronic software based stabilization, not physical hardware IBIS, No? 

 

 I have had a few years of patiently waiting for 4k 60fps and now that it is here I am ready to pull the trigger.  I've already sold some clips even though the limitations of the GoPro but I would be able to ask a higher price if I could offer footage in 4:2:2.  I've learned to shoot pretty steady shots on a unbalanced GoPro rig and if I had a good stabilized rig with the IBIS and Stabilized lens, I am confident that i could pull off some pro level smooth shots more often than not.   Also I could finally shoot some macro  grab a monitor so i can see that back button focus and zebra striping.  I am excited to start working on a real camera and learn real skills of filming other than point and shoot.  

 

It's just i really wanted that lower light capability to shoot deep with ambient light and or in my cave diving.  I might have to get both bodies as it looks like you can use same housing!!   Not sure i can wait another year as Trickster said, lol.  But he is probably right,  next year the cameras will shoot 8k 30fps and 4k 60fps 4:2:2 internal so no need of expensive recorder and housing, could get away with just a monitor!



#10 Pajjpen

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:59 PM

 
I agree this post could be moved to different forum if admin is looking. 
 
I understand the IBIS does not help the heat dissipation and heat can cause noise.  There are Pro Lvl or broadcast cameras that use IBIS, No?   and the new EVA1  uses electronic software based stabilization, not physical hardware IBIS, No? 
 
 I have had a few years of patiently waiting for 4k 60fps and now that it is here I am ready to pull the trigger.  I've already sold some clips even though the limitations of the GoPro but I would be able to ask a higher price if I could offer footage in 4:2:2.  I've learned to shoot pretty steady shots on a unbalanced GoPro rig and if I had a good stabilized rig with the IBIS and Stabilized lens, I am confident that i could pull off some pro level smooth shots more often than not.   Also I could finally shoot some macro  grab a monitor so i can see that back button focus and zebra striping.  I am excited to start working on a real camera and learn real skills of filming other than point and shoot.  
 
It's just i really wanted that lower light capability to shoot deep with ambient light and or in my cave diving.  I might have to get both bodies as it looks like you can use same housing!!   Not sure i can wait another year as Trickster said, lol.  But he is probably right,  next year the cameras will shoot 8k 30fps and 4k 60fps 4:2:2 internal so no need of expensive recorder and housing, could get away with just a monitor!

8k wouldn't change much tho would it. I mean 4k is pretty damn good as is, as long as the shots are stable and clean.
Mind sharing some of the videos you've sold? Genuinely curious :)

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#11 gearbow_36218

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:09 PM

8k wouldn't change much tho would it. I mean 4k is pretty damn good as is, as long as the shots are stable and clean.
Mind sharing some of the videos you've sold? Genuinely curious :)

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One production company wanted  wanted some of this loggerhead footage https://www.youtube....h?v=9IeAH-FTrLw  That link and also there is another video with loggerhead they wanted some clips of.  certainly not all the footage is usable but they wanted a few seconds here and there.  Also sold some barrel sponges spawning and some clips to a production company for shark week which ended up on the cutting room floor but still got paid. Also many more inquiries for educational purposes and indy films.  http://eel eats lobster


Edited by gearbow_36218, 09 January 2018 - 05:22 PM.


#12 gearbow_36218

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:46 PM

8k wouldn't change much tho would it. I mean 4k is pretty damn good as is, as long as the shots are stable and clean.
Mind sharing some of the videos you've sold? Genuinely curious :)

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Yeah I have a hard enough time editing in 4k with the equipment I have now. But 360 vr will start to look really good in 8k!

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#13 Davide DB

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 03:28 AM

Ok, we steered from IBIS to high iso/low light capabilities :)

 

Sorry to be a bit rude on this I think "noise at high ISO" is a debate since the camcorder was invented. Actually IMHO a moot point. We are discussing of scrren doors on a submarine!

 

Please define e x a c t l y what is your definition of noise. Please give me a real example, a link to a clip useless because of high iso noise.

 

Since I started filming underwater I read countless posts, articles on this topic. Whatever camera you pick, there will be always someone who find high iso unacceptable. Based on internet pixel peepers opinion we would have ZERO movie/documentary produced since the invention of Netscape because quality is not enough. This is demonstrated and documented by bazillion of bushes filmed on the backyard.

 

I wrote this provoking post  after reading this comment "And yet 20-year-old film students who don't know how to light still complain because the camera is grainy in low light" on this thread:

 

https://www.reddit.c...gh4_for_in_car/

 

This is the source:

 

 

90% of my video are shot below 70m and since my GH1 I never complained about noise. I'm simply easy-going about it. I go down and shoot. Noise is the last of my problems. 

Regardless of own noise tolerance, reading this thread an average joe is under the impression that modern camera are useless in low light.

 

Byeeeee  :deadhorse:


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#14 Pajjpen

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:57 AM

I think you’re way off Davide, and frankly come off as annoying.
If your noise tolerance is higher than everybody else’s well then good for you, really. But the rest of us are looking for as clean footage as possible, surely u can dive at any depth and illumate your subject with lights but that’s not the issue.. the issue is with shooting deep ambient light video where lights just won’t be able to reach (i.e most hammerhead and the likes kind of dives)
Didn’t know an “avarage joe” wasn’t allowed to care about the quality of his footage from his 15-20k$ Setup.

Lastly, talking about topside lighting here is totally irrelevant.
Just my 2 cents..

#15 Davide DB

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:23 AM

I think you’re way off Davide, and frankly come off as annoying.
If your noise tolerance is higher than everybody else’s well then good for you, really. But the rest of us are looking for as clean footage as possible, surely u can dive at any depth and illumate your subject with lights but that’s not the issue.. the issue is with shooting deep ambient light video where lights just won’t be able to reach (i.e most hammerhead and the likes kind of dives)
Didn’t know an “avarage joe” wasn’t allowed to care about the quality of his footage from his 15-20k$ Setup.

Lastly, talking about topside lighting here is totally irrelevant.
Just my 2 cents..

 
Hence show me a deep ambient light video that it isn't worth using for you.
It's 2017 and most of the camera are capable of clean ISO 1250. A GH5 even ISO 1600. The point is that we are speaking of the top gear for this market segment. Even a Sony A7 won't give you completely different results. In fact Vimeo and Youtube are full of "Frankenstein vs Wolfman" style video. So probably you have to go up one step up ($$$) to get something different in quality term.
 
Sorry I annoyed you. I'll go back to film bushes (in low light, of course).

 

Bye


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#16 kc_moses

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:00 AM

At 2:07

 

About 90ft, cloudy day, no more than ISO400, around F5 with my LX100 (it's similar to GH4). This show there is a need of low noise performance for UW.

 

Everyone should know the limitation of their gear and push that limit and know what they want/need. So with GH5s, it may help with the situation in my case? May be. But without the IBIS, when you deal with cloudy day, deep, and strong current, would one choose Gh5 or GH5s? It all come down to how comfortable you feel about fixing, either fix the noise with NeatVideo, or fix the shakiness with After Effect Warpstabilizer.



#17 Pajjpen

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:08 AM

At 2:07

 
About 90ft, cloudy day, no more than ISO400, around F5 with my LX100 (it's similar to GH4). This show there is a need of low noise performance for UW.
 
Everyone should know the limitation of their gear and push that limit and know what they want/need. So with GH5s, it may help with the situation in my case? May be. But without the IBIS, when you deal with cloudy day, deep, and strong current, would one choose Gh5 or GH5s? It all come down to how comfortable you feel about fixing, either fix the noise with NeatVideo, or fix the shakiness with After Effect Warpstabilizer.

U can't really output in 4k if you want to stabilize your footage tho.
I can definitely see many people getting both the 5 and 5s and using the 5s for the deep dives.

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#18 kc_moses

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:45 AM

U can't really output in 4k if you want to stabilize your footage tho.
I can definitely see many people getting both the 5 and 5s and using the 5s for the deep dives.

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You can output in 4K after stabilize, it's just that your pixel is no longer 1:1, in a sense you loose some sharpness. Same happen for NeatVideo noise clean up, even though the pixel may be 1:1 after NeatVideo processing, but you also loose sharpness since NeatVideo introduce some "Softening" to reduce the noise.

 

From my experience, the stabilized "4K" sharpness is still acceptable for web and home 4K TV despite you could loose up to 5% of the pixel from stabilization post processing. I don't know if there is a big difference in sharpness for 4K shoot from M4/3 sensor (GH4/GH5/LX100) compare to 1" Sensor (LX10, Sony RX100), I suspect smaller sensor could be less forgiving.



#19 Pajjpen

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM

 
You can output in 4K after stabilize, it's just that your pixel is no longer 1:1, in a sense you loose some sharpness. Same happen for NeatVideo noise clean up, even though the pixel may be 1:1 after NeatVideo processing, but you also loose sharpness since NeatVideo introduce some "Softening" to reduce the noise.
 
From my experience, the stabilized "4K" sharpness is still acceptable for web and home 4K TV despite you could loose up to 5% of the pixel from stabilization post processing. I don't know if there is a big difference in sharpness for 4K shoot from M4/3 sensor (GH4/GH5/LX100) compare to 1" Sensor (LX10, Sony RX100), I suspect smaller sensor could be less forgiving.

I meant the wobble and stuff off the sides of the frame that u get when stabilizing, which of course u could crop out but then you would lose quality, if u don't it just looks a little weird. Know what I'm saying?

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#20 thetrickster

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:35 AM

Too much post stabilisation can indeed make footage look very odd and at times give you a very uneasy viewing experience with stuff wobbling at the edge of your footage.

 

I know I've used it too excess before with bad (looking at it now) results.

 

Having the IBIS and OIS on the GH5, really does negate the need to use any warp stabiliser - when I have added it, its very slight and just removes the final bumps, and yeah the 1-2% you loose, you won't see in YouTube.

 

One thing for the GH5 would be running it at 60fps, a higher shutter speed and with the increase in ISO - something you potentially can't do with the GH5, the warp stabiliser then has twice as many frames (and sharp, clean ones at that) to calculate the movement, so you can potentially get much cleaner, stable results.

 

Interesting times ahead


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