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#41 kc_moses

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 05:21 AM

There are 2 things to considers: Price of camera and price of housing.

For the price of camera, the GH5 definitely is a winner.

If Nauticam doesn't make housing for the GX10, you are only left with Gates, which have very expensive and bulky housing.

 

Also, 150Mb for 60fps 4K seems very small for file size, so will have to see how good is the image after all the compression. Other than that, GX10 do have lots of flexibility in term of WA and Macro, and built in ND filter. I'm just curious how much control can you have on the camcorder once it's put into housing. Many modern camcorder have touch screen menu now so once put into housing, you can only use one or 2 buttons.



#42 bubffm

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 01:39 AM

I wouldnt necessarily call the Gates housing bulky and expensive.  If I compare the Gates AX 100 housing to the Nauticam GH5 with an Acrylic port, then, yes the Gates is a bit heavier. But it is completely neutrally buoyant, which I certainly cant say about the Nauticam GH5 with acrylic port (flips skywards). And the weight balance between the two will tip quickly if you use a glass port and carry other accessories / port options.  I can tell you I carried more weight on my last trip with the GH5 than ever before with my Gates AX100.

 

Same on the price: While just the housing for the GH5 is some 700 USD less than the Gates, by the time you add ports, extension rings, lenses etc. you are likely to spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on a ready-to-shoot GH5 setup than on a Gates AX100, which is pretty much ready to shoot out of the box with a wide angle port and a Saga flip added for close Macro.

 

In the end it will depend what quality the new Canon's can deliver, and then if Gates (or others) consider it worthwhile / see a sufficient market to invest resources to design a housing for it.

 

And the even bigger question: WiIl there be a successor for the Sony AX100 and what might that have on offer...


Edited by bubffm, 15 September 2017 - 01:44 AM.


#43 thetrickster

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 01:46 AM

The FDR-AX700 has just been announced...!

 

https://www.sony.com...rders/fdr-ax700

 

No idea if it would fit the AX100 housing?


Edited by thetrickster, 15 September 2017 - 01:49 AM.

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#44 bubffm

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 03:41 AM

I guess they had to react to Canon!

 

On fitting the old Housing: No, the right hand side of the Housing looks too bulky, more like the Sony X70 (the "Pro" version of the AX100).

 

In fact looking at the specs it seems to be pretty much a re-branded X70 (sans Handle). Many reasons not to get too excited:

* still only seems to do 30p in 4k - and I have already started to really appreciate the 4K 60p option on the GH5!  

* still a 100Mbps codec.  
* no more than 8bit in 4K

 

Nope, thats not quite it.


Edited by bubffm, 15 September 2017 - 03:43 AM.


#45 thetrickster

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 04:50 AM

Looks like they missed the boat on that one - shame...and surprised!

 

Well at least it makes me feel a bit warm inside, sticking with the GH4/5 as I was almost tempted by a AX100 previously


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#46 wydeangle

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 11:58 AM

The new Canon GX10 could be quite interesting! My AX100 Sony doesn't seem to have the brightness of color that my old Canon G10 did.

 

Looking at the pictures of the new Canon GX10 on B&H Photo's web site seemed fine - until I saw the "AIR INTAKE" and "EXHAUST VENT" labels on the right side of the new camera. I wonder if the 150 Mbps data rate causes some component(s) inside the camera to generate noticeable heat?

 

Any housing design for the GX10 would probably need to account for some heat transfer - trapping heat underwater couldn't be good, especially on hour+ dives.

 

Otherwise, I'm certainly tempted.

 

I've also looked at the advance information on the Sony AX700 which may replace the AX100; there doesn't seem to be enough increase in capability at first glance to be worth an upgrade. I didn't see any higher data rate, or frame rate.

 

I'm definitely staying tuned...

 

Tom



#47 SwiftFF5

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:03 AM

The new Canon GX10 could be quite interesting! My AX100 Sony doesn't seem to have the brightness of color that my old Canon G10 did.

 

Looking at the pictures of the new Canon GX10 on B&H Photo's web site seemed fine - until I saw the "AIR INTAKE" and "EXHAUST VENT" labels on the right side of the new camera. I wonder if the 150 Mbps data rate causes some component(s) inside the camera to generate noticeable heat?

 

Any housing design for the GX10 would probably need to account for some heat transfer - trapping heat underwater couldn't be good, especially on hour+ dives.

 

Otherwise, I'm certainly tempted.

 

I've also looked at the advance information on the Sony AX700 which may replace the AX100; there doesn't seem to be enough increase in capability at first glance to be worth an upgrade. I didn't see any higher data rate, or frame rate.

 

I'm definitely staying tuned...

 

Tom

 

I originally moved to Canon from Sony camcorders because of the color issues, so I am a bit wary of any Sony cameras right now.

 

Good catch on the air intake and exhausts.  I had missed those.  That could definitely be an issue, especially on longer dives as you point out.

 

Thanks!


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#48 SwiftFF5

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 04:23 AM

So, now it appears that Sony is also coming up with some new camcorders (Sony FDR-AX700, HXR-NX80, and PXW-Z90) as well.  I wonder if their underwater white balance is any better than it used to be?


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#49 matdiver1234

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 01:01 AM

 I wonder if their underwater white balance is any better than it used to be?

 

Single 1" chip.... don't hold your breath!  


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#50 SwiftFF5

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 03:36 AM

 

Single 1" chip.... don't hold your breath!  

 

Yeah, that's what I was worried about.  Thanks!


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#51 SwiftFF5

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 03:58 AM

Hi all, time to update this thread.  After having inconveniences/equipment failures on both of my last two dive trips, it is definitely time to update my equipment, especially now that the new gear is out.  I have been talking with a couple of vendors, who are giving me different advice, so I could use your help sorting it all out.  I am planning a trip to Guadalupe Island, so I would like to have the new gear in hand prior to that trip to get a chance to play with it first.  I am on a bit of budget, and would like to stay in the range of about $5K USD, and I already have video lights, so it is really the camera/housing/port combination that I would be replacing.

 

Basically, I have been shooting video with camcorders for a while now, starting with Sony handycams (digital tape versions), but got so discouraged with their WB problems, that I switched to a Canon HF S30 in a Light and Motion housing several years ago.  The last two trips, either the camera or housing has had problems, causing me to lose shots so it is time to upgrade, and getting 4K in the bargain isn't a bad thing.

I basically shoot fish portraits, up to the size of sharks and rays, and down to macro subjects using a Subsee +5 flip in diopter.  I pretty much only shoot video, since I dive with some excellent still shooters, anyway.

A friend that I dive with has a TG-4 and has suggested the TG-5 as an option.  When I talked with one vendor, he suggested a GH-5 set up, and I was leaning strongly that way, but was a bit worried that I would have to add an external monitor/recorder to be able to see the image well, especially when shooting macro.  However, after talking with another vendor (who has been my supplier for years), he suggested a Sony AX700 in a Gates housing.  His argument was the GH-5 has such a small DoF that I would need a tripod for any sort of macro work with the GH-5, and it already has a large screen, which is visible in the Gates housing, so that I would not need any sort of external monitor.  Those points both make sense to me, but I am really worried about the Sony WB issues not being resolved yet.  I have been enjoying the quality of the Canon WB, which hasn't needed anywhere near as much work to get decent color.

 

So, if you were in my shoes, which option would you choose?  Thanks for the help.


Edited by SwiftFF5, 30 April 2018 - 04:00 AM.

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#52 matdiver1234

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 04:59 AM

GH5 + Nauticam. WB really does work, and 4K 50/60 is just great to have. 10-bit 1080 50p, 10-bit 4K 25p, 1080 up to 180 fps, 4K up to 1.... someone on here said they could not really think of what more to ask for, and I agree. In practice DoF depends on aperture surely? I use the PZ 14-42 3.5-5.6, and DoF isn't really an issue. I guess with your +5 diopter you would have to be careful, but one of the great advantages of 4K is that you can crop and still end up with a full HD image, so you don't always need to be fully zoomed in underwater. Also, 50p slowed down to 25p in post looks very smooth. I don't do macro, but the best macro stuff you see on vimeo etc seems to have been filmed with a tripod. Don't forget that you'll need a decent computer and good NLE to edit!

Just my 2 cents!

 

Matt


Edited by matdiver1234, 30 April 2018 - 06:49 AM.

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#53 thetrickster

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 05:20 AM

So, if you were in my shoes, which option would you choose?  Thanks for the help.

 

How much you got to spend? :)

 

The GH5 (and m43 generally for that matter) I don't think suffers from lack of DoF - set the aperture to f5.6 and you are golden.

 

What aperture are you running on your current camera? Might give you a good idea of what fstop you would require on a m43 lens to match the DoF.

 

Personally you might find the ergonomics of a still's camera very off putting compared to the ease of use with your L&M housing. The lack of instant thumb control for camera control - you might find it a big step backwards. I'm very pleased thou with that Nauticam have done with the NA-GH5, everything pretty much is at your right thumb.

 

So perhaps an AX700 in a gates housing would be a good call, but your right, I think the consensus is that Sony's MWB still isn't up to much compared to the Canon and now Panasonic (better its getting, but still not great) so you will probably still need the flip filter.

 

I've got zero complaints with my GH5/GH5s setup, but its a pretty amazing system when tied with the WWL-1. The only negative I have is the buoyancy and the need for so many float arms.

 

Something only really bettered (for video) if you are willing to spend another 15k-20k on an EVA1 or C200 at the moment.


Regards, Richard

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#54 SwiftFF5

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 06:02 AM

Thanks Matt and Richard.  I had definitely been leaning toward the GH5 until vendor 2 (who sells both) strongly suggested the AX700.  I don't mind a flip filter, if it actually fixes the problem.  I had not had any luck previously with filters on my old Sony's (including the famous Alex Mustard Magic filters). 

 

I'm not actually sure what f-stop I am using now, since the camcorder sets that automatically.  I suspect that is embedded in the clip data, so I will take a look at that.  Good idea, thanks.

 

The ergonomics of the L&M housing are really good, and that does factor into the equation a bit.  Although it is manual and not electronic, the Gates housing would be more familiar, I would expect.

 

Richard, my budget is in the $5K range for camera and housing, no lights - so the EVA1 or C200 are not in the picture - and I'm not sure my skills could justify them, either.


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#55 dreifish

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 01:31 AM

For best ergonomics and overall zoom flexibility without having to fiddle with wet lenses, the camcorder route is hard to beat. Your white balance will suck without a filter, but 1) the GATES housing has a flip filter option and 2) IMO, most scenes below 5 meters benefit much more from good lights then they do from great white balance capabilities. 90% of my shots with the GH5 are with the WB set to 5200K and video lights. I only really shoot ambient light 5 meters and shallower.

 

That said, the GH5 is definitely the better option when it comes to image quality and faster frame rates. It's just not the most ergonomic or streamlined solution in the water once you add all the extra flotation and wet lenses you need. 

 

Macro is a wash -- whether or not you need a tripod largely depends on the magnification you're shooting at. At equivalent levels of magnification, you're going to get equivalent levels of shakiness and moving in and out of focus based on your movement in the water, basically. This has nothing to do with depth of field or sensor size really -- larger sensors can get the same depth of field as smaller sensors by shooting at a smaller aperture. And actually, the 1" sensor in the AX700 and the m4/3 sensor in the GH5 are not that different in surface area at the end of the day. 2x crop on the GH5 vs 2.7x crop on the AX700 vs full frame. That's only a one stop difference in aperture to achieve the same depth of field.

 

Given your budget, I think both the GH5 and AX700 are options, and I'd make the decision based on what's more important to you -- ergonomics and ease of use vs ultimate image quality, basically.

 

One other thing to mention -- since you only shoot fish portraits and nothing larger than sharks, you don't really need the wide field of view the GH5+WWL-1 combo would give you. That's more for reef scenes. Indeed, I find that with the WWL-1 on, I usually have a tough time approaching fish/sharks close enough to get a good portrait, even zoomed in all the way to 42mm. For that use, you might be better off with something like the Panasonic Leica 12-60mm lens inside a 180mm dome port or even the olympus 12-50mm inside it's specialized flat port, which gives you the whole range from macro to 35mm equivalent. Note that if you go the 12-60 +180mm dome port route, you're looking at $2500 on top of the $1500 for the GH5 body and $2650 you're spending on a housing, so it might be above your budget.



#56 SwiftFF5

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 03:06 AM

Thanks Andrei, that is very helpful information indeed.  I agree that the WWL-1 will be wider than anything that I am really interested in, and there is a lot of appeal for either the 12-60/180 port or the 12-50 and flat port options. 


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#57 EvilOtter

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 11:06 AM

Other options that you might consider are a GX85 in a Nauticam housing or a G85 in an Ikelite housing. These cameras are limited to 4K UHD at 30fps but, then again, so is the AX700. On the other hand, they are well over half the cost of a GH5 body and are considerably smaller and lighter. With both systems, you could acquire the camera, housing, ports and gears for an Olympus 9-18mm and a Panasonic 60mm macro for around $4,000. That would leave you with ample budget to house the kit lens or add a CMC and flip holder for super macro.

 

Note that the Ikelite ports are AF only, which may not be an issue for you given that you are comparing to a camcorder alternative. Nauticam also offers a lot more port options, which may or may not be a good thing for you and your budget.

 

Finally, I should add that I have no experience diving either of these cameras. I have an LX100 in an Ikelite housing. However, I shoot a G85 above the water and absolutely love it. Dual IS (IBIS + a Power OIS lens) is very sweet, especially on long lenses!


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#58 SwiftFF5

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 03:04 AM

Thanks EvilOtter, I will look into that option as well, then.  With my current setup, I usually do use the built in autofocus, which if is good enough, might not really be an issue as you say.  Thanks.


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#59 SwiftFF5

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 03:04 AM

There is finally an underwater review of the Sony FDR-AX700:

 

https://www.gateshou...-white-balance/

 

They seem pretty excited about it - those of you who are more savvy than I am (which is most everyone here), what are your thoughts?  Has Sony finally gotten a good underwater white balance?


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#60 bubffm

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:11 PM

Yep, Gates builds a housing for the AX700 and want to sell that, so no surprise they are excited :))) This is really a promotional article, not a review.

I was coming from the the AX100 so the logical update would have been to the Ax700. But honestely, to me the specs are hugely disappointing and you will get much more features out of the GH5: 10bit, 60p(that one not at 10bit though), All Intra codec etc etc... Sony markets HDR capabilities. But then, by definition, HDR means 10bit - and the AX700 only has 8bit. They castrated the cam to protect their pro product range. Panasonic has been much more open in that respect.

The screen of the AX700 and GH5 are pretty much the same (small) size, so no benefit on that end. You could argue that the swivel-screen on the side will be easier to see than the GH5 screen at the lower end of the Nauticam GH5 housing. No question though that the buoyancy of the Gates AX housing is hard to beat. Thats a big minus for Nauticam GH5 which, depending on port, is pretty negatively buoyant.

Nonetheless, I have not regretted settling for the GH5. But if your focus is on easy handling and perfect buoancy and you dont mind only having 8bit and 30p, go for the Gates AX700. Their housings are great without any doubt.

Edited by bubffm, 19 June 2018 - 12:16 PM.