Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

ISSUES WITH YS-D1 STROBES


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:06 PM

My apologies if this has been covered in another thread, but I have a pair of YS-D1 strobes operating via fiber optics, that work just fine. However, when i turn the power output up past 1.0 all of my photos are completely dark. The strobes fire, but it seems the camera (Canon 7D) doesnt seem to be in sync. Perhaps its a camera issue. Either way i have played around with various settings, but no luck. Can anyone offer any suggestions or solutions to my problem???

 

Much appreciated if anyone can solve my query. Thanks in advance.

 

Regards, uri.



#2 sunnyboy010101

sunnyboy010101

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 64 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver Island

Posted 08 November 2017 - 03:20 PM

What sync speed are you using right now? Did you try 1/60?



#3 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 16 November 2017 - 02:26 AM

What sync speed are you using right now? Did you try 1/60?

I am using fiber optic cables, so im of the belief it doesnt come into play. At least i cant find a setting on my camera that relates to this.....



#4 hellhole

hellhole

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 189 posts

Posted 16 November 2017 - 02:45 AM

I am using fiber optic cables, so im of the belief it doesnt come into play. At least i cant find a setting on my camera that relates to this.....

Well.. it does....
So what is your shutter speed and aperture

Edited by hellhole, 16 November 2017 - 02:46 AM.


#5 Pavel Kolpakov

Pavel Kolpakov

    Wolf Eel

  • Industry
  • PipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Underwater photo

Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:14 AM

What mode did you set by left dial of YS-D1 ?


Edited by Pavel Kolpakov, 17 November 2017 - 03:22 AM.


#6 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:35 AM

Well.. it does....
So what is your shutter speed and aperture

It varies. Depends on the shot. But it doesnt seem to matter what settings I am using. I tried test shots in my living room with each shot a different apperture and they were all the same. I turned the strobes down a notch after trying all different settings and tried again. Same results. Turned the strobes down another notch and still had the problem. They work fine on all camera settings up until 1.5 power output. After this they will still fire, but the photos are not in sync and totally underexposed................I am at a loss.


What mode did you set by left dial of YS-D1 ?

They are set to the second mode. They dont work with the first setting. strangely they work with the TTL setting, but not how they should.......



#7 Pavel Kolpakov

Pavel Kolpakov

    Wolf Eel

  • Industry
  • PipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Underwater photo

Posted 20 November 2017 - 04:00 PM

Well, you strobe is in Manual mode without pre-flashes.

Then set your camera menu setting: "Flash control">>"Buit-in flash settings">>"Flash Mode">>Manual flash. 

I have just checked my 7Dm2 with YS-D1 on high and max powers, - everything works normally at these settings.

 

Yes, possible to imagine that your YS-D1 electronics has malfunction. But, both strobes have got the same malfunction simultaneously ? I don't think so.

Hope you use ENELOOP batteries?, this is important for clear tests. Those strobes YS-D1/D2 give unexpected effects with weak batteries.


Edited by Pavel Kolpakov, 21 November 2017 - 03:56 AM.


#8 ChrisRoss

ChrisRoss

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney Australia

Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:52 PM

Sync speed matters no matter how you are connecting, so I would suggest to try the test again at a shutter speed below your cameras sync speed if you were shooting higher previously.  It is inherent to the camera.  If you are shooting below the sync speed it's probably fine though still worth trying at something like 1/60 in case there is an issue with a delay in firing the YS through its slave circuit

 

As far as what the flash is doing, best way to find out is using an incident flash meter to measure the strength of the pulse, if it gets stronger as you turn the dial up as it should then it's a sync issue or maybe the on board flash?

 

Alternately if you have a another camera set it up in a darkened room open it's shutter on bulb with same aperture you are using on your UW rig then set off your UW rig at the highest setting that works then on another shot set it off at the first setting that does not work.  If the image gets brighter on the second shot it's a sync issue.  If it doesn't or the frame is dark, that flash is too low a power to record anything.

 

It seems odd as the camera knows nothing about what the YS flashes are doing and the on board flash is just mimicking what the on board flash is doing.  

 

One possibility is you have the camera set to TTL flash while your strobes are on manual.  If this happens, the pre flash causes the flash to dump then immediately it needs to repeat the manual exposure and it doesn't have enough power as it has had no time to recharge.  The camera flash  is OK as the pre flash is at very low power and hardly drains the capacitor, but your strobes fire at the pre set setting at both pre flash and exposure flash.   That would explain why it happens at a particular power level.


Edited by ChrisRoss, 20 November 2017 - 11:47 PM.


#9 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:29 AM

Well, you strobe is in Manual mode without pre-flashes.

Then set your camera menu setting: "Flash control">>"Buit-in flash settings">>"Flash Mode">>Manual flash. 

I have just checked my 7Dm2 with YS-D1 on high and max powers, - everything works normally at these settings.

 

Yes, possible to imagine that your YS-D1 electronics has malfunction. But, both strobes have got the same malfunction simultaneously ? I don't think so.

Hope you use ENELOOP batteries?, this is important for clear tests. Those strobes YS-D1/D2 give unexpected effects with weak batteries.

Thanks again for your response Pavel. I had a look at the settings as you suggested, and it was actually on the E-TTL mode. I have changed it to manual mode now. I will set my rig up tomorrow and take a look and let you know how i go. Like you said it seems strange that it would be the same problem on 2 strobes. In any case, they always fire, so i doubt there is a problem with the strobes, I just need to change the settings.......

 

Thanks again. Regards, Uri.



#10 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:36 AM

Well, you strobe is in Manual mode without pre-flashes.

Then set your camera menu setting: "Flash control">>"Buit-in flash settings">>"Flash Mode">>Manual flash. 

I have just checked my 7Dm2 with YS-D1 on high and max powers, - everything works normally at these settings.

 

Yes, possible to imagine that your YS-D1 electronics has malfunction. But, both strobes have got the same malfunction simultaneously ? I don't think so.

Hope you use ENELOOP batteries?, this is important for clear tests. Those strobes YS-D1/D2 give unexpected effects with weak batteries.

One other question, once you have set your flash mode to manual, what do you set the flash output at?? i have options for 1/1  1/2  1/4  1/8  1/16  1/32  1/64  1/128...........



#11 tursiops

tursiops

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 193 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 November 2017 - 09:19 AM

One other question, once you have set your flash mode to manual, what do you set the flash output at?? i have options for 1/1  1/2  1/4  1/8  1/16  1/32  1/64  1/128...........

I use1/64. May as well save the camera battery, if that is enough light to fire the strobe. It is the strobe setting that determines the exposure, not the camera setting.


Edited by tursiops, 22 November 2017 - 09:19 AM.


#12 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 22 November 2017 - 09:41 AM

I use1/64. May as well save the camera battery, if that is enough light to fire the strobe. It is the strobe setting that determines the exposure, not the camera setting.

Thanks for the reply. I have always set the flash to its lowest output setting for use with my strobes, but it would seem that I had it set on E-TTL. Hopefully this is why I was having the issues.



#13 Pavel Kolpakov

Pavel Kolpakov

    Wolf Eel

  • Industry
  • PipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Underwater photo

Posted 22 November 2017 - 12:23 PM

I use1/64. May as well save the camera battery, if that is enough light to fire the strobe. It is the strobe setting that determines the exposure, not the camera setting.

 

Yes, many people set pop-up flash to minimum setting 1/128 or 1/64, just for external flash synchronization in M mode. It is good for camera battery saving.

But pay attention, that such solution is acceptable only for few models of underwater strobes, not for all. It does not work properly for many well-known strobes on the market.

Good example of this is Z-240 by optics, - yes, in M mode it begins burning at the control signal beginning, but not all people know that Z-240 stops burning after control signal end. If pop-up flash produces very short control flash 1/128 or 1/64, then Z-240 also can produce only small power flashes and impossible to significantly increase power by right dial. For normal work in Manual mode Z-240 requires control signal duration longer than 3.2 ms. This is undocumented feature.  According it, we must set 1/1 flash power in camera menu. This is reality.  I can say even more, - 1/1 camera flash duration is necessary for Z-240 control, but not enough for getting 100% energy. Because pop-up flash has a small size tube and it's maximum duration is about 1...2 ms (but not 3.2 ms !!). Yes, of course 1...2 ms control signal is enough for getting about 70% of Z-240 max power, but the rest 30% is unavailable.

In common case, only LED triggers can fire Z-240 and other similar underwater strobes for full 100% power. LED triggers produce appropriate long signal duration for underwater strobes (usually 5 ms for small strobes, 25ms for large strobes). This is one of well-known advantages of them. 


Edited by Pavel Kolpakov, 23 November 2017 - 03:44 AM.


#14 Pavel Kolpakov

Pavel Kolpakov

    Wolf Eel

  • Industry
  • PipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Underwater photo

Posted 22 November 2017 - 01:14 PM

Thanks again for your response Pavel. I had a look at the settings as you suggested, and it was actually on the E-TTL mode. I have changed it to manual mode now. 

 

So you understand what was happening, - large energy left YS-D1 at pre-flash, and the rest of energy was not enough for normal main flash. Images were dark.

In "M" mode (camera menu) there will not be pre-flashes in system, but just a main flash. Everything will be Ok.


Edited by Pavel Kolpakov, 22 November 2017 - 01:54 PM.


#15 ChrisRoss

ChrisRoss

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney Australia

Posted 23 November 2017 - 11:42 PM

 

Yes, many people set pop-up flash to minimum setting 1/128 or 1/64, just for external flash synchronization in M mode. It is good for camera battery saving.

But pay attention, that such solution is acceptable only for few models of underwater strobes, not for all. It does not work properly for many well-known strobes on the market.

Good example of this is Z-240 by optics, - yes, in M mode it begins burning at the control signal beginning, but not all people know that Z-240 stops burning after control signal end. If pop-up flash produces very short control flash 1/128 or 1/64, then Z-240 also can produce only small power flashes and impossible to significantly increase power by right dial. For normal work in Manual mode Z-240 requires control signal duration longer than 3.2 ms. This is undocumented feature.  According it, we must set 1/1 flash power in camera menu. This is reality.  I can say even more, - 1/1 camera flash duration is necessary for Z-240 control, but not enough for getting 100% energy. Because pop-up flash has a small size tube and it's maximum duration is about 1...2 ms (but not 3.2 ms !!). Yes, of course 1...2 ms control signal is enough for getting about 70% of Z-240 max power, but the rest 30% is unavailable.

In common case, only LED triggers can fire Z-240 and other similar underwater strobes for full 100% power. LED triggers produce appropriate long signal duration for underwater strobes (usually 5 ms for small strobes, 25ms for large strobes). This is one of well-known advantages of them. 

 

What version of the Z-240 is this referring to?   I saw this and thought I should check it out as I shoot with two Z-240 flashes on manual with the onboard flash of my olympus set at 1/64.  

 

to test this I set up the flash starting at 4 on the manual power setting and checked each level through to 11 one stop at a time and measured the output with an incident flash meter.  At each increase of one stop on the Z-240 the light output went up by around 1 stop all the way up to 11. 

 

I then checked the output at 11 on the Z-240 triggered by the olympus flash at full power and got the exact same readout on the flash meter as I did on 1/64 power on the onboard flash.  The reading of 11 is supposed to be 1/2 stop under full power so the next check was a full power dump by changing from Manual to full on the LH dial which is documented to provide full power no matter what settings are used elsewhere and the readout was 1/2 a stop more output as expected.  A final test was to trigger the strobe in manual on full power using an LED torch and that also produced the same output as when triggered by the onboard flash.

 

I can only conclude that my Z-240 produces full output whether the onboard flash is on full power or 1/64 power.  Mine is a type 4 Z-240 and only just on a year old, it seems like that feature has been fixed in an update at some point??


Edited by ChrisRoss, 23 November 2017 - 11:47 PM.


#16 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 24 November 2017 - 06:15 AM

 

So you understand what was happening, - large energy left YS-D1 at pre-flash, and the rest of energy was not enough for normal main flash. Images were dark.

In "M" mode (camera menu) there will not be pre-flashes in system, but just a main flash. Everything will be Ok.

Thank you so much Pavel. You nailed it. I changed to manual flash, reduced the output to 1/64 and voila!!! perfect. Full power bursts while using any apperture or shutter speed settings.

 

Every day is a school day!! Thanks so much.



#17 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 24 November 2017 - 06:18 AM

Sync speed matters no matter how you are connecting, so I would suggest to try the test again at a shutter speed below your cameras sync speed if you were shooting higher previously.  It is inherent to the camera.  If you are shooting below the sync speed it's probably fine though still worth trying at something like 1/60 in case there is an issue with a delay in firing the YS through its slave circuit

 

As far as what the flash is doing, best way to find out is using an incident flash meter to measure the strength of the pulse, if it gets stronger as you turn the dial up as it should then it's a sync issue or maybe the on board flash?

 

Alternately if you have a another camera set it up in a darkened room open it's shutter on bulb with same aperture you are using on your UW rig then set off your UW rig at the highest setting that works then on another shot set it off at the first setting that does not work.  If the image gets brighter on the second shot it's a sync issue.  If it doesn't or the frame is dark, that flash is too low a power to record anything.

 

It seems odd as the camera knows nothing about what the YS flashes are doing and the on board flash is just mimicking what the on board flash is doing.  

 

One possibility is you have the camera set to TTL flash while your strobes are on manual.  If this happens, the pre flash causes the flash to dump then immediately it needs to repeat the manual exposure and it doesn't have enough power as it has had no time to recharge.  The camera flash  is OK as the pre flash is at very low power and hardly drains the capacitor, but your strobes fire at the pre set setting at both pre flash and exposure flash.   That would explain why it happens at a particular power level.

Thanks so much for your detailed response Chris. As it turns out it was a simple problem where my camera flash was set to E-TTL and once I changed it to Manual the problem was resolved. Sadly I didnt realise this while i was in Martinique diving recently. Allthough I was pretty sure that I had tried this. In any case, there is no problem with my strobes or camera, so this is great news.

Maybe we should go for a dive and take some photos next time im in sydney town??...

 

Cheers chris.



#18 Pavel Kolpakov

Pavel Kolpakov

    Wolf Eel

  • Industry
  • PipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Underwater photo

Posted 24 November 2017 - 12:29 PM

 

 Mine is a type 4 Z-240 and only just on a year old, it seems like that feature has been fixed in an update at some point??

I have a pair of Z240 type-4. Both of them are 4 years old. Both have the same effect.

Maybe Inon fixed it last year, i don't know. I will try to find more fresh Z240 for that test. Ok.


Edited by Pavel Kolpakov, 24 November 2017 - 12:30 PM.


#19 ChrisRoss

ChrisRoss

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney Australia

Posted 24 November 2017 - 12:47 PM

Thanks so much for your detailed response Chris. As it turns out it was a simple problem where my camera flash was set to E-TTL and once I changed it to Manual the problem was resolved. Sadly I didnt realise this while i was in Martinique diving recently. Allthough I was pretty sure that I had tried this. In any case, there is no problem with my strobes or camera, so this is great news.

Maybe we should go for a dive and take some photos next time im in sydney town??...

 

Cheers chris.

No worries, sonds like a great idea, let me know if you're in town, hopefully I will be at the same time.



#20 flamebouyant

flamebouyant

    Triggerfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pau France at the moment. Normally residing in Cairns Australia
  • Interests:Diving, Photography.

Posted 25 November 2017 - 12:18 AM

No worries, sonds like a great idea, let me know if you're in town, hopefully I will be at the same time.

Will do. Theres a good chance i will be there around April next year...