66 replies to this topic

[acroporas]

Yea it is disrespectful.

[Drew]

There was one time I suggested to a spearo crowd that to make it fair, they should go without masks or fins and hunt in a group. Then they'd see how they'd fare.
I think any sort of hunting which involves killing or even catch and release a bit retarded. I mean it's one thing to have to do it on an island in PNG but with supermarkets in their neighborhoods, it's all a bit overly prehistoric.
Unfortunately, people are that conscientious about their environment and justify their acts accordingly. That is really the biggest problem.

[MikeVeitch]

Actually i would rather see spearfishing than commercial fishing. Lot less waste that way, buying in the supermarket comes from longliners and purse seiners

[Kelpfish]

Right on, Mike. Commercial fishing with nets either kills non-target species which are either discarded or used as bycatch to fulfill other food niches. Either way, they are indiscriminate killers. I know, I used to do it in my marine biology days. When we had the chance, we dove on the nets to release all non-target species. It's amazing what a net can catch.

Joe

[hoovermd]

Personally I enjoy such a spirited exchange.
I'm a "modified" vegetarian and am married to a "real" vegetarian.

I added fish back onto my diet after several years travelling to places in the US where they thought vegetarian meant fettucini alfredo or cheese pizza. Have you ever heard of a tuna melt coming with bacon on it? Neither had I until I had one served to me... but that is another story

There are several organizations that support "sustainable" seafood harvest (as has been mentioned by other posters). Here is one of ur local links:
http://www.mbayaq.or...eafoodwatch.asp

Not to seem overly zealous but those of you non-fish eaters might want to visit this link to read some of the impact that beef producton has on the environment. Remember that pesticides used to grow the grains that the cattle eat are more than likely finding their way into the ocean.... remember DDT?
http://www.panda.org...pacts/index.cfm

[yzer4]

What I always notice in discussions like these is that we're always talking about "the others".
It's a bit like driving a car, the other road users are always the inept drivers, we ourselves are cut out to be F1 drivers.

Of course I have inadvertently scraped the corals and broken off a branch a few times, shit happens and I'm hardly holier than the pope, although one can wonder how holy it is to have been a member of the hitler jugend, but that would be a seperate discussion alltogether...

So what's wrong with harassment?

Harassment according to Websters online dictonary:
1. A feeling of intense annoyance caused by being tormented
2. Tormenting by continued persistent attacks and criticism

according to Wikipedia:
Harassment is a term defined by law to refer to many types of behaviour that are found threatening or disturbing, and beyond those that are sanctioned by society.

It seems quite clear to me what is wrong with harassment.
The question should actually be when touching/interacting becomes harassment.

I always try to stick to the "do not do onto others that you would not want them to do onto you" approach.

So yes, I would be pretty upset if a bunch of spermwhales would think it's a laugh to play volleyball using me as the ball...

To end with the biggest cliché of all: to make the world a better place, start in your own backyard.
Since it's the 31st of December, we should all put this in our New Years resolution list.

[Graham Abbott]

How about yet another angle on all this. What do you all think about fish species collection? Is this really needed? So many people go to these forums in search of a name for the animal. Someone has to go, kill, collect and pickle the said animal so we can say we saw a Blah Blah rather calling it a what's it's name or a Blah sp.

Come on give it to me, your deepest, darkest thoughts on this...

[ce4jesus]

"The photo in your post is controversial to me - not because of the speared fish ( i view spearing as selective fishing ) but because it shows spearing on SCUBA - where's the sport in that ???"

Oh I don't know...Had a buddy spear a tuna at 110ft. Tethered to a $499 speargun he was dragged to 240ft before cutting the tether. The other adrenaline fix this sport offers is it certainly makes you shark bait while tethered to a writhing fish.

Seriously, all forms of water sports harass the fish/environment to some degree. Underwater photography is no different. The important thing to remember is to make as little impact as possible no matter what you're doing.

[kriptap]

My two cents, we've all heard the stories "Well you should have seen this place 20 years ago" and the like, meaning back then their were far more fish and corals in our oceans and sea, so what ever we humans are doing, at this rate in another 20 years or so we might not have much to see or photograph at all.

[RebreatherDave]

I harass my cats and dog on a regular basis by vigorously rubbing their surfaces. The cats consistently display their stress to this physical attack by making a guttural stacatto sound with their throats and they seem to lose eyelid control as their eyelids often start to droop.

Often times my Old English bulldog will be biting me, and if I respond by stressing her out with vigorous rubbing and handling, often times she loses muscular control and flops to the ground, frequently followed up by partially losing sphincter control and then she defensively jets a noxious, highly toxic WMD gas in my direction whle she makes this sawing sound with her breathing.

I see Mike Veitch admits to fondling sea cucumbers, then checking their sphincters for crabs.....I am SURE this stresses the sea cucumbers.......well, at least the straight ones.....

[Chud]

I personally would rather not touch or manipulate at all but with my limited SCUBA experience there seems to be a real pressure on DM's to 'provide a show' when leading a group - DM's taking a fin off and using it to poke a lionfish out of it's crevice, likewise with a large (9') Nurse Shark, grabbing a puffer and passing it round the group... I'd rather position myself to get the shot I want than position the animal - I guess I feel like moving the animal is 'cheating' in a way. Besides which I can just about position my dogs for photos and they're meant to do as they're told!

In terms of damage to reefs I think it's a particularly valid point when talking about sites that get 2+ visits a day from boatloads etc. of divers, often with poor skills*, but I saw a very interesting bit on a program recently - Wild Indonesia 'Underwater Worlds' - it featured a coral reef that was annihilated by a volcanic eruption but came back after a few years with far greater biodiversity than previously.


*As I'm sure many folks on here are only too aware - number of dives logged etc. is no guarantee of ability, attitude or spacial awareness!

[shark8matt]

it featured a coral reef that was annihilated by a volcanic eruption but came back after a few years with far greater biodiversity than previously.

This is hardly surprising as it follows basic ecological principles. After a disturbance event, the ecosystem is a 'clean slate' where numerous organisms can stake a claim. It take decades to centuries for a community structure to progress towards climax succession in which the ecosystem will be dominated by those individual species best adapted to that environment. In this case, these species out-compete other species that may have originally been there, and the biodiversity index is lower than in a community that is just being colonized. Re-colonization opens the door for many opportunistic species and generally raises the overall biodiversity index. Please don't misconstrue - this is not saying something to the effect of "divers damaging the reef increase its biodiversity" because this is untrue. A volcanic event would be a large scale, acute disturbance event triggering a paradigm shift in the community. Divers cause a small scale, and chronic disturbance on the reef which can negatively effect both the biomass and biodiversity of a reef. The small but stable disturbance may prevent successful recolonization by consistently damaging the same area as divers pass through, not allowing the time necessary for organisms to re-establish.

cheers!

- MDP

[Chud]

This is hardly surprising as it follows basic ecological principles. After a disturbance event, the ecosystem is a 'clean slate' where numerous organisms can stake a claim. It take decades to centuries for a community structure to progress towards climax succession in which the ecosystem will be dominated by those individual species best adapted to that environment. In this case, these species out-compete other species that may have originally been there, and the biodiversity index is lower than in a community that is just being colonized. Re-colonization opens the door for many opportunistic species and generally raises the overall biodiversity index. Please don't misconstrue - this is not saying something to the effect of "divers damaging the reef increase its biodiversity" because this is untrue. A volcanic event would be a large scale, acute disturbance event triggering a paradigm shift in the community. Divers cause a small scale, and chronic disturbance on the reef which can negatively effect both the biomass and biodiversity of a reef. The small but stable disturbance may prevent successful recolonization by consistently damaging the same area as divers pass through, not allowing the time necessary for organisms to re-establish.

cheers!

- MDP

Yeah you could say that Diver induced damage skews the evolutionary selection process from what it would be on a virgin reef.

[greedo5678]

I cant not believe some of the things coming out of peoples mouths or in this case fingertips.

Acroporas, i really wonder why you chose that name? And be able to say that touching and fondling of coral does not harm it? I have been working for a Coral Reef conservation foundation for the last 7 years and have direct evidence of such distruction but, my point is this...

If we cannot be sure, whether we are harming the animal or not... WHY F*CKING BOTHER!???!!!!

There is enough dead rock or sand or rubble to put a well placed fingertip on, if your dive standards arent good enough to hover (PADI openwater dive 2), that you shouldnt need to touch any living benthic animal to steady yourself. Yes, every now and then a wayward fin will kick something, no one has eyes in the back of their head, but the active, nonchalant touching of animals is pointless and yes destructive.

Now onto manipulating a subject... WHY F*CKING BOTHER!???!! As if these live creatures dont have enough to worry about, with you guys killing their habitat, the world at large changing the global oceans at a rate previously unseen, without your metal rod coaxing them into better positions for what.... a photo that gives you some minor satisfaction? Come diving with me and use a metal rod and it will either be rapped across ur knuckles or stuck where the sun dont shine.

We take these photos to capture a living creature at its finest in its NATURAL habitat. So if that frogfish (camoflauged as nature intended) wants to sit face down in a hole... let it. Go find another. Learn where these creatures hang out, learn their movements and capture that. Way more exhilarating when you get it right, as any one who has seen Mandarinfish mating or similar will tell you. A passive waiting game for true behaviour.

As for fishing... that is a natural phenomenon of hunter vs hunted. If the hunted becomes food then so be it, as long as the fishing practice is non-destructive to any other organism. I.e if we compare long-lining for tuna to spear fishing... we all should know that long-lining has the highest percentage of bi-catch per fishing method, including sharks, turtles, birds, and other fish compared to the 'educated' spear fisherman, who catches only what he needs to live, survive or sell at the market. By educated i mean a susistance fisherman (probably living below the line of poverty and never having finished school), not a college educated boy killing fish and game for fun, with no want for food.

So, in short dont bother, it achieves nothing.

Olly

[JKrumsick]

I second Olly.

If we don't know what the consequences of touching coral really are (as some people claim), then that in no way justifies us touching them.

Even if we assume that it is ok (and doesn't harm the coral), it's still no good reason to use an animal as a handhold.

[bonniemckenna]

Harassment of sea life while trying to get a photograph is a subject on the top of my mind. I just returned from a month of diving the Raja Ampats and 10 days in Lembeh. While in Lembeh I witnessed, and wished I had had the fore thought to take a picture, a group of people tearing apart a group of sponges to get a better shot of a frogfish. While in the Ampats last year, I watched a group of divers from a very well known dive resort move an ornate ghost pipe fish several times, by batting it around, just to get a better shot. After finishing with the pipefish, this same group (dive guide included) pulled a wobegong out from its hiding place onto the sand to film its movements. I am about to write and article regarding this very subject. If anyone wants to add their stories, I will be happy to use your story.

[xariatay]

Harassment of sea life while trying to get a photograph is a subject on the top of my mind. I just returned from a month of diving the Raja Ampats and 10 days in Lembeh. While in Lembeh I witnessed, and wished I had had the fore thought to take a picture, a group of people tearing apart a group of sponges to get a better shot of a frogfish. While in the Ampats last year, I watched a group of divers from a very well known dive resort move an ornate ghost pipe fish several times, by batting it around, just to get a better shot. After finishing with the pipefish, this same group (dive guide included) pulled a wobegong out from its hiding place onto the sand to film its movements. I am about to write and article regarding this very subject. If anyone wants to add their stories, I will be happy to use your story.

I feel a little bad to "expose" the "offending" dive centre/resort on the forum/s. But would privately inform my diving friends about them... I would also inform the guides that I don't appreciate them moving things, i.e. folding the sea fan to expose the pygmy seahorses, moving rocks to expose the shrimps (a tiger shrimp was nearly devoured by the opportunistic fishes, after being photographed because the guide torn the place apart... ) etc...
bonniemckenna, I will PM u to ask abt the dive centre/resort, in nov, will be gg to Lembeh & a friend is gg to Raja Ampat... Thanks!

[Scuba_SI]

I feel a little bad to "expose" the "offending" dive centre/resort on the forum/s. But would privately inform my diving friends about them... I would also inform the guides that I don't appreciate them moving things, i.e. folding the sea fan to expose the pygmy seahorses, moving rocks to expose the shrimps (a tiger shrimp was nearly devoured by the opportunistic fishes, after being photographed because the guide torn the place apart... ) etc...
bonniemckenna, I will PM u to ask abt the dive centre/resort, in nov, will be gg to Lembeh & a friend is gg to Raja Ampat... Thanks!

I'm not sure exposing the Divecentre will actually help. All the operators here would be appalled to know that one of their staff was doing this kind of stuff, but to be honest you never know what the staff get upto when you're not in the water with them. Sometimes the guests lean on them pretty hard to do naughty things.

I'd suggest for anyone seeing bad behaviour in Lembeh to contact the DiveCentre directly with the date/time/divesite so they can refer back to the records and reprimand the diveguide in question.

[Drew]

Let's be real about the fact that if rocks are lifted etc, most of the shots of critters which hide wouldn't be possible. Reporting them sorta does help people who are on both sides of the fence.

Those who don't want guides to be touchy touchy can avoid the ops and those who don't mind or even encourage it for photo ops get to go to a place where the service is provided. Win win!

[Alex_Mustard]

Those who don't want guides to be touchy touchy can avoid the ops and those who don't mind or even encourage it for photo ops get to go to a place where the service is provided. Win win!

That will be confusing for the people who come on the forums and say "I don't want anything manipulated" and then harass everything when they are down there. I am getting fed up with hearing of the number of people who say one thing publicly and then behave completely differently.

So soon will be lots of people posting on Wetpixel asking "Can you tell me the resorts that manipulate creatures> So, errrm, I know which ones to avoid!"

Alex