32 replies to this topic

[critidoc]

This would be easier to answer once the d200 is out on the street (or underwater).

Trying to get the most bang for my buck. I was shooting with a C-8080 and want to upgrade to a dslr.
thoughts? recommendations? previous suggestions between the olympus e50 and d200 appreciated

[Rocha]

Hi Critidoc,

If it is bang for the buck that you want, at half the price, I say the D200 is the better choice. The resolution will be very similar, and the D200's body is better than the 5D in many ways, although many that are not very important for those that shoot mostly underwater.

Now, if you want excellent (as opposed to only good) high ISO performance and the other advantages the 5D's full frame sensor brings, then the 5D is a better choice.

Luiz

[Alex_Mustard]

I don't think many users will be starting from scratch with these cameras. So for most people decisions will of course be influenced by what kit people already own. Both these cameras will be well supported by housing manufacturers and strobe manufacturers, for those who deem TTL a requirement.

IMO (although I have shot neither) the 5D is a better camera than the D200. While it is more expensive**, the difference in cost is smaller than it seems when you consider the whole system. For UW shooting both have a good selection of lenses. If you can afford it, I would suggest you go with the 5D (but only if the more expensive body did not mean compromising on housing quality).

(**One of the best guides to how good a particular camera is is its price!)

Overall I think new users can get too worried about the relative abilities of different cameras - scared to commit to a camera in the fear of making a wrong choice.

It is easy to be misled by forums, where people (like me!) debate and magnify small differences between cameras. In the end there are very few lemons in the major brands, and even cameras that many consider obsolete are producing excellent images that stand up at the highest level (e.g. Canon D60 and Nikon D100).

As I say periodically on Wetpixel, the quality of any photographers images will improve much faster by buying a camera, getting it underwater and shooting. Than sitting on the fence and worrying. There is far more variation in photographer skill and technique than there is between the major DSLRs.

Alex

[Paul Kay]

I have to agree with Alex and add that both cameras will probably be capable to extremely high quality results. In my opinion, 10MPixel plus cameras are now probably surpassing 35mm film in terms of quality and versatility of output. The weak link in the chain is us - the photographers!

Given that both cameras will be good, try handling both them and their housing when available. You won't be disappointed with either.

[motionsync]

I was ignoring the past year canon.. mostly becauce of the price and becauce i was a nikon owner.

Now that i have deside that i need a better camera that the Nikon d70 i have naturaly thinking the next step is the D200

but for the last days i have read a lot about the canon 5D and what i can say.. its look really a great camera... in the papers..

Low noice in high isos
ful frame sensor, a 15mm sigma will give 180 degress ..
Resolution that is higher that the d2X prints bigger that A3 not a problem att all.

but on real world UW photography does it matter??

The only thing that i dont know is the Autofocus quality of the 5D iff you compare it with the d200 or d2X

The camera is very small (Hope the new housings to) the design is not as good as Nikon, very old but if you use the camera underwater its dosent matter how the camera look..

General i say I love the quality off the photos. I still not belive how a photo that is 1600 iSO have almost Zero noice...


on the other side is Nikon d200 a product that have hiden qualitys..

as a Nikon user and fan I dont like to write more ;-)

You can read a nice comparion at

http://www.quesabesd...OS-5D,1_en_2114

and one more

http://www.kenrockwe...00-vs-canon.htm

Lambis

[james]

If you doin't want to get really really frustrated, I'd just skip the Ken Rockwell comparison. But then again, it might make you laugh so...

Cheers
James

[Rocha]

I agree with James and wouldn't take anything that Ken Rockwell says seriously.

About the D200 vs. 5D, if you want high ISO there is no question about it. The 5D (or even the 20D) is far better than any Nikon. Now, based on Alex' and some of my observations, I know that Nikon's AF (even the D70) usually performs better than Canon's in low light, but all my comparisons were with the 10D and 20D. When I was in Belize a friend of mine had a 20D in an Ikelite housing and he couldn't take a single picture of the hamlets spawning because the camera wouldn't focus and he had no focus light. I photographed the entire spawning and usually kept taking pictures for 10-15 minutes after it, also without focus light.

But again, I think the problem you are facing with freedivers is the lack of contrast, not low light, so I guess the only way to really test it is by using the camera. Hey, a ticket from Europe to Florida is only about 500 euros in low season. Come visit Ryan (or William - acroporas) and rent (or borrow) a 5D and some free divers...

[kdietz]

Lambis....I picked up my D200 this morning....as a former D70 owner, I can say that this camera is a substantial step upwards.....huge and very sharp LCD...much larger viewfinder and extremely fast AF in very low light

Don't be confused by the techno writers.....just do it

Karl

[motionsync]

Luiz

I eally love to visit florida and especialy if I can borrow soem freedivers any better :-)

I think its time that we make a trip all together..... it will be a hell of a trip.

about canon versus nikon- it is really hard to compare those so different products. The philosophy behind the companies anre so different that is almost imposible to do it..

AF system is for me the nikon beter its just work .

Low isos and low noice is canon the king..

Resolution i think its dosent matter we are on the limit anyway...

the DX facror versus full frame .. man its big but i like the dx factor of nikon. small lenses, great optics and sharp to the corners..Canon have some isues with it...

then is the price... 1600 euros to 3000 euros its almost the double her in Sweden.

Its a long discussion and we will never find the aswer.

Its like BMW versus Mercedes, Katlolics versus Orhtodoxs, Kapitalismus vs. Kommunismus.... endless dicsussions...


lambis

[motionsync]

Karl...

I am not confused :-) maybe my english is not that good.

i wa always a nikon user and i just feel confortable with Nikon. I have my lenses that I have used and are O.k. and i will stay with nikon

I just see that canon have some great funtions that i miss on my nikons but that is not the reason enough to go with it.

you newer live you wife only becauce you have se one day a woman with great legs...:-) and please dont comment this....

lambis

[acroporas]

Hey Lambis, as a 5D owner, maybe I can make your decision somewhat easier. I do not regret my 5D purchase one bit, but if the D200 was introduced in October along with the 5D, I would now be a Nikon shooter.

The 5D is an awesome camera. I don't see the D200 besting the 5D in any category. But it will be very close in every category and at half of the price the IMO the D200 is a much better deal.

But then, you have not been using your D70 for all that long. Are you sure you need to upgrade at all so soon?

[TheQ]

Reading Ken Rockwell's "commentaries" is like watching a car accident... I know I should turn away, but I... I can't.... He sure likes to mention that Pop Photo mag article; probably because it's the only article ever written that says Nikon has the edge on noise.

Anyway, I ended up with the 5D due in large part to my investment in EF lenses (I avoided purchasing EF-S lenses with the assuption I would go FF eventually). I don't regret the purchase at all.

I am envious of the D200's weather sealing and ergonomics. However, even if I was to start over, I would still go with the 5D based on image quality alone.

[herbko]

Lambis,

For a free diver like you, I think good high ISO performance is a big deal since you are shooting without strobes. If you stack two of Alex's magic filters and shoot at 25m depth at ISO 1600, you'll get much better results with the 5D than you would with a D200.

[ssra30]

Hmmmm, I think you might as well toss a coin and you'll be happy with either choice. As a Nikon shooter, if I go out and buy a camera today, I would go with D200. I don't think 5D is good enough to convince me to switch over to the Canon side instead of going with D200 and vice versa.
I played with D200 quite a bit over the past month and I also had a chance to play a bit with 5D in the same setting ( my Nikon source believed in "knowing all your enemies well" ) and I have to say that if I am starting from scratch, I would go with D200 only because of the price. D200 body is better and for me, shooting mostly at iso100-200, I don't think I would notice significant difference in image quality. However if I know I am going to shoot iso800-1600 a lot, I would think the extra cost of the 5D is worthwhile.

I am not particularly concerned about cropped vs FF. If Alex thinks that 10.5mm DX is better than Nikkor 16mm fisheye lens then I am in a wide angle happy camper with DX cropped sensor and don't miss or care much about FF one way or another.

[meister]

Anyone heard anything further regarding specifics on housing/port development for the 5D other than the Ikelite housing?

[Paul Kay]

FYI Seacam will build a housing for the 5D.

When making a choice between the 5D and D200 you can actually think in terms of 35mm vs 645 (medium format). The more I use the FF Canons, the more I realise that they have more in common with a 645 camera - in terms of the depth of field issues and stunning bokeh of some lenses - than 35mm. Whilst the MPixels are similar, the overall image quality is slightly different. I personally now prefer the Canon as it has opened up new avenues to explore in terms of image creation. To my mind the Nikon's very effectively mimick 35mm and have all the advantages that this brings, but do not produce the smoothness of backgrounds that the Canon is capable of. Costing any system should always be done based on the whole system not just a camera body as 'peripherals' can immensely increase costs!

[Kasey]

All this talk about noise was enough to get me to go back and review my photos from white water rafting in Oz. I inspected CLOSELY looking for noise from my D2x and I could not find any at all in the shadows. Minor monochromatic noise in the sky - I wouldn't bother to run NN on this image for print. This at ISO 640. At ISO 1000 and above - well I almost never shoot there. I looked at my Hi2 shotsfrom a theater - total darkness. THe images are noisy, but it is still entirely monochromatic. I would NN this files before printing, but I know they will clean up nicely.

I think noise is becoming as much of an obsession as MP have been. Truth is, I add noise more often than I remove it these days!

Paul's point is well taken in that there are other differences between FF and DX that must be taken into consideration.

[Alex_Mustard]

I have only used/played with the 5D in the shop. My impression is that the AF is very good, much closer to the 1D/1DS series than the 20D. Which is good for UW shooting. I think that the low noise at high ISO offers some very interesting possibilities for filter photography, particularly shooting at say ISO 800 and using longer lenses for fish etc.

I have not played with the D200. But on paper I think it would be a better UW camera choice than the D2X. The D200 AF is good, and the viewfinder too. The image quality is very close to the D2X 10 vs 12MP is very similar. And it costs many thousands $$$ less to flood. Plus housings are smaller and will almost certainly be cheaper too. Also many of the D2X features such as build quality, HSC, vertical grip and shutter aren't any use underwater.

Regarding the 5D vs the D200 - I think that neither are ideal starter cameras and therefore what you already own will be the main decision point between them. If you don't already own a Canon or Nikon for UW photography, then I think you are more likely to be deciding between a 350D and D70s.

Alex

[motionsync]

This have become a intersing dicsussion

The choice of a camera is very personal and have to do with the way you are taking photos.

I use my camera only for UW photos.. Landphotos are not my think..
anf therefore features that improve the shooting over water are not intresting for me.

William ask me... you have not been using your D70 for all that long. Are you sure you need to upgrade at all so soon

William you are right. Off cource I dont need to upgrade at all so soon.
but I need a second camera body and I dont like to spend my monay to a new D70s

But i know the limits of my D70s.
The d70s is not for freediving photography the perfect camera.
its the noice and ISOS that i compination with filterphotography and White balance can be a problem.

The D200 have something very intresting for me and my way to take photos.

If you take photos with A priority you can set you camera to increase the Iso automaticly if the shutter is going slower that say 1/125.

In a swedish forum they have dome some test and i just show you the results

Resultat is that the d200 control better the highlights. (I thing it is like the d2X , they just clip the highlights.)


The color is diferent i think that the d200 have they same way to process the colors like the D2X .
3x crop
..undefined

then you have less chromatic abberation, soemthing that i have offen in my photos



and some more photos

D200 + DX 17-55mm

D200 + DX VR2 18-200mm

D2X + DX VR2 18-200mm

D2X + DX 17-55mm

If i would use the camera both on Land and in Water I would not think the same way...

Lambis

[TheQ]

It's not so much the noise itself that bothers me. A little grain never hurt anyone. It's the loss of detail that bothers me the most.

I usually use the DPReview noise comparisons to check on how cameras behave at various ISOs. The differences in detail retention can be dramatic.

Everyone is correct though... you really can't go wrong with either camera. If I had a D100 I would jump on the D200 in a heartbeat. If I had a D70... well the decision would be a bit tougher. The D70 is already a pretty good camera.