50 replies to this topic

[jgdiver]

Clearly, John Gordon's images do not belong in the general category. Here's BTS's own definition of the general category "A. General: Wide or medium shots of divers, wrecks, reef environments, etc." John's images are beautiful but they are macro shots. Unless it's just a typo on their site, it seems kind of wierd.

Lionfish, I think you are correct in your observation, my files for the competitions I labeled these images for entry in BTS as "C" for the macro categories I'm not sure what happened as I entered five major competitions and the rules for each were quite different. In my effort to comply I found it necessary to re-edit and size for each competition multiple times perhaps, if I made a mistake on the entry form. I cannot find any defining evidence on my end showing which category they were entered in to for BTS. This is the first year I have sent entry's so I could have made a mistake. My apologies if the mistake was mine.

John

[yahsemtough]

You may want to contact BTS to verify and let them know John. Errors can occur innocently, on either side.

Todd

[Lionfish43]

This is the first year I have sent entry's so I could have made a mistake. My apologies if the mistake was mine.

John

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No need to apologize to any of us. I wouldn't worry about it too much. After all. a first place prize is usually pretty substantial. If BTS screwed up. it's not your problem.

[Slippery-when-wet]

Just had another look through the gallery of winners. I was a bit disappointed to see the boxer crab image getting through. Boxer crabs don't live on sponges and are rarely found in such neatly arranged pairs - methinks that there has been some manipulation there.

Anyone else get that impression from that image?

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd have to go with this assumption too, but I'm not going to appologise afterwards.
Boxer crabs are almost always found singularly and the dive guides go collect them and arrange them for the photographers on that sponge.
To state that they were pointed out by the diveguides as is, would be grossly misleading. To say there are witnesses too, frankly I'd rather believe the second coming was yesterday.
Manipulating wildlife is a big no-no supposingly in competitions and if this image is allowed to take the prize (in the wrong category) it shows that it's all lip service and really anything goes.
It just shows how inexperienced judges can be with regard to the natural habits of creatures. Just one of these latest phase creatures wit a cute persona.
So if you want your witnesses to purger themselves too, post their comments here.

[cor]

I'd have to go with this assumption too, but I'm not going to appologise afterwards.
Boxer crabs are almost always found singularly...

The key word being 'almost'. There is always a chance that an image that looks like it just cant be true, is actually natural. For that reason I think one should be really careful in publically attacking someone. If you cant actually proof anything, id give anyone the benefit of the doubt. (*)

It just shows how inexperienced judges can be with regard to the natural habits of creatures. Just one of these latest phase creatures wit a cute persona.

I think what it shows is that some diveguides and/or resorts will do almost anything to please a customer, and unless you say something about it right then and there, its not going to change. But, before I get any comments about that, I know there are plenty of guides and resorts that are very conscious of the environment.

Cor

(*) unless ofcourse its so obvious there is no other way, like that image where both the foreground and the background are sharp, but the middle isnt.

[BrantD]

I'd have to go with this assumption too, but I'm not going to appologise afterwards.
Boxer crabs are almost always found singularly and the dive guides go collect them and arrange them for the photographers on that sponge.
To state that they were pointed out by the diveguides as is, would be grossly misleading. To say there are witnesses too, frankly I'd rather believe the second coming was yesterday.
Manipulating wildlife is a big no-no supposingly in competitions and if this image is allowed to take the prize (in the wrong category) it shows that it's all lip service and really anything goes.
It just shows how inexperienced judges can be with regard to the natural habits of creatures. Just one of these latest phase creatures wit a cute persona.
So if you want your witnesses to purger themselves too, post their comments here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Realizing this is an open forum, and people can lower themselves to the slime on the bottom of the barrel, a commit like the one above shouldn't surprise me, but it does.
That said......the above commit has to be one of the most rude and ignorant post I have ever read. This falls under a troll post in my opinion, as they have attacked everyone they can, from the photographer, the dive-guides, the competition, the judges, and then to scrape the bottom of the barrel, you out and out start calling any witnesses lier's also.

Simply amazing the level some folks will lower themselves to!

[Rocha]

Alright, this is getting a bit too heated, so let me drop my $0.02. Alex raised the question that the crab wasn't in its usual habitat, and that's a fact. John said that the dive guides pointed him to the crabs and he didn't see anyone move the crabs, and that's a fact. So, let's leave it at that folks.

Congratulations again to the winners! John, your shot got honorable mention on the Scuba Diving contest too!

http://www.scubadivi...06photocontest/

Luiz

[Alex_Mustard]

I wish I haddn't mentionned it. Alex

[echeng]

Luiz: nice summary. Alex: I'm glad you brought this up.

[Tio Loco]

At considerable risk to my reputation (just by posting over here ), I'll perjure myself, and come to John's defence. I was John's dive buddy (as was Fisheyedave) on the dive in question, and the only reason I don't have the same shot is that I was set up for wide angle. (In fact, I do have the shot, but the crabs are too small to see.)

Although I saw no manipulation of wildlife by the guides, I can testify that John did not move them or place them in any way.

Wow, I bet this doubled my post count here!

[yahsemtough]

Hey Richard,

You should pop by more often.

I don't think anyone has accused John personally of moving the crabs. I am 100% sure he personally did not. What people are saying above is that it is obvious they were moved. I'm not even sure if that violates a contest rule or not.

As you know, I dove with the same operator as John on the site with the Boxer crabs a week earlier. I can clearly say I saw the guides move the crabs for my dive. They searched the shallow rubble looking under rocks and then placed the Boxers on a brown sponge nearby. So I too can support John by stating he did not move the crabs as a fair and honest statement.

That said I am assuming BTS will have a second look at the judging in this category now as the shots are obviously placed incorrectly in this General category, as John has mentioned above (The Scuba Diving Contest has them placed Honourable Mention in macro).Scuba Diving Magazine Contest Honourable Mentions

Hopefully the thread can go back to focus on all those who placed. Congrats again

[Lionfish43]

I was at BTS this weekend and in the spot for John Gordon's first place in the General Category was a placard that said " disqualified for unethical manipulation of sea life." Personally, I don't feel that was right.

[cor]

That does seem quite harsh.

Cor

[yahsemtough]

I think all a contest needs to do is remove photos that violate rules. In some cases mistakes can be innocent/interpretation so that response does seem a little harsh. Heck, the two photos were clearly in the wrong category as they are macro shots, not wide angle or medium lens shots of marine environment.

Did they remove the macro winner (Dodi) that had placed second in LAUPS also? The rules stated that winners known before December were not eligible and LAUPS announced in mid-October. LAUPS Macro Winners

In the end I know these contests are a huge amount of work so all that are involved in running any contest should be commended.

[kdietz]

That does seem quite harsh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Cor and Todd......regardless if their decision was correct or not, that kind of statement and display is totally unappropriate IMHO.....if that was their decision, why not just move everyone up and go on with it?

Karl

[randapex]

Interesting move on the part of BTS. At the least, because of this action, people may consider a little more carefully what they submit in the future. And also, ask questions about what the dive guides are showing them.

Most competitions are following the guidelines developed by Epic. And after this strict interpretation, I wondered about my Bahama Shark photos that are entered in Epic's current photo comp. Since they were the result of "Animals being fed". But, I see Epic refined their rules on that.

Rand

[echeng]

Man. Harsh. Bad call on BTS' part...

[Kelpfish]

I agree with Rand in that it sends a stearn message. But as for the diver, I will say that MANY divers, if not most, are not marine biology saavy and when you go to a foreign country whose marine ecosystem is vastly different than their "home" dive sites (like Catalina Island for me) you really don't know what is natural or not unless you research every dang image with a skilled, knowledgeable diver or biologish in that foreign area. So it is evident that the gentleman who had that crab shot wasn't clear whether that shot was naturally occurring or not. He entered in good faith (I assume) and thus the image at the most should have been quietly removed/replaced and he should have simply been notified that the competition commitee (who also didn't know better) has learned that this is not naturally occurring and we have therefore eliminated your entry. They should explain to the entrant exactly what the violation was by someone who is an expert in that area of study. But that does place a burden to those who shoot but don't know better as to what they are shooting because they might need to seek knowledheable types (as IKE always says) to ensure that the image submissions are naturally occurring. Is that the direction we want to go? Personally, when I travel, I lean very heavily on the dive guides for information and I also bring a marine guide book (if it's small ) . Most resorts or boats have their own books too. Take advantage of that. I will say with great emphasis that if I knew these were solitary animals, I would have not sent in the image.

Joe

[Alex_Mustard]

I also think that the BTS judgement is a harsh one. Such decisions/checks should be made before results are made public - and once results are public then they should be final.

But I do think it is important to send out a non-harming subject message through books and competitions. I don't really have a problem with people taking these sorts of images for their own pleasure. In all honesty, the animals are only very rarely harmed. The problem is when these sorts of images are used in guide books or awarded in competitions - and thus encourage others to emulate them (guides and/or photographers), which multiplies the problem.

Alex

[segal3]

Did they remove the macro winner (Dodi) that had placed second in LAUPS also? The rules stated that winners known before December were not eligible and LAUPS announced in mid-October. LAUPS Macro Winners

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is more or less Dodi's style - to send in photos that have already won. You'd be even more surprised at some of the European contests he wins and then goes ahead and sends the same images to the States...

This behaviour is reinforced when contests in the U.S. decide not to check all previous winners (honestly, a Google search is not entirely difficult), and award an individual with a placing. I understand that running a contest is difficult, but an easier way to do this would be to wait until the 1st,2nd,3rd,HMx3+ had been chosen, and then start running through the entries to ensure eligibility.

I'd recommend emailing BTS and notifying them of the error/previous winner. They have the ability to revoke any honors and prizes post-contest as stated in Rule 9:

In the event that an award winning entry is later found to have violated any rule, it will be
disqualified, and officials of this competition reserve the right to recall prizes.