50 replies to this topic

[MikeO]

I was at BTS this weekend and in the spot for John Gordon's first place in the General Category was a placard that said " disqualified for unethical manipulation of sea life." Personally, I don't feel that was right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm, didn't notice that out front, but I am pretty sure the shot was still in the slide show during the "film festival" in Saturday night . . .

Mike

BTW, Jim Abernethy's alligator shot may not have gotten the biggest prize, but it did get the biggest reaction from the audience at the film festival . .

[Lionfish43]

I wasn't at the evening program so I can't speak to that but I was at the exhibit hall on Friday, Saturday and Sunday and the photo was not displayed. Where it would have been was a card that said read "disqualified due to unethical manipulation of sea life."

[randapex]

I know everybody here loves Jim Abernethy but how he can enter as an amateur and compete with his customers is beyond me...

Rand

[MikeO]

I wasn't at the evening program so I can't speak to that but I was at the exhibit hall on Friday, Saturday and Sunday and the photo was not displayed. Where it would have been was a card that said read "disqualified due to unethical manipulation of sea life."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were mistaken. I believe you -- I was inside most of the time so I didn't really pay attention to the display out front at the exhibit hall. I was just pointing out that it was odd that it was still in the slide show having been removed out front. Having said that, the show appears to be a big beast to run and they rely on volunteers a lot so maybe it was just a glitch in the system. IOW, it wasn't the only thing I've noticed that was a bit odd!

Cheers,

Mike

[Tonym]

If you reference the book "Indo-Pacific CORAL REEF Field Guide" by  Dr Gerald R. Allen & Roger Steene on page 163 you will see a similar pair of boxer crabs together. I know that they were not placed together for this photo I believe paring is natural behavior.

Sincerely
John Gordon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John,

I spent two weeks diving with one of these two esteemed crusty gentlemen and
I assure you that prior to taking their photo he regularly moved subjects without a second thought .

There were also others on that trip that observed the subject relocation project.

[Kelpfish]

Hi All,

I am writing this with my god damn temp tooth from a root canal coming out aqain within 2 days of having the same thing happen....BUT, moving and capturing and positioning subjects is all too common. Out of respect I will only say that many professionals do it, you just never know because we are awe inspired by their shots. I have said in previous posts that I have personally seen and heard first hand from the culprits themselves that manipulation occurrs so the shot can be captured. That can be for books, John, or for any other profit making median. If a two-boxer shot is in a book, is it scientifically correct? Maybe not and maybe. But like I have said again and again in this forum, some "pros" are great photographers....and some are great marketers....need I say more.

[Kelpfish]

Okay folks, shall I serve my ass on a plate? I have had some private correspondance and additional foresight into the matter of the boxer crab picture. This is not my feedback but I respect that of the garibaldi who messaged me this. So here goes:

While writing my material for an article article that goes out to dozens of UW
Photo Societies and scuba clubs for their newsletters, I was searching the
web for info on Boxer Crabs. I came across the Boxer crab discussion and saw the pics from John Gordon. Since I'm not on that forum, I
was wondering if anyone there offerred the fact that everyone on the boat
knew the crabs were moved? There was even a discussion on the boat about
that shot not being eligible for contests...was that mentioned?

Gordon also stretched the rules about industry professionals being
ineligible; a while back, he was a divemaster and photo pro on the Nekton.

Just brings a new perspective to this issue.

Joe

[Drew]

John,

I spent two weeks diving with one of these two esteemed crusty gentlemen and
I assure you that  prior to taking their photo he regularly moved subjects without a second thought .

There were also others on that trip that observed the subject relocation project.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll definitely back that up. They are photographing for books so being "correct" is the least of their priorities. They don't claim it's natural, they just want ID or show photos. Now would their book win an award if one of the photographs was deemed unnaturally manipulated?
I've observed that boxer crabs stay under cover in the day and move about at night but still seeking cover. You don't see them running out in the open for obvious reasons. Also anyone who's been diving in Indonesia would know that dive guides will move things for photogs. It's their livelihood. It is what those mental rods are for, not to fend off attacking mantis shrimps. EG tapping on holes to bring mimics or wunderpus up and dig them out or sticking their hands and prods through muricella to find pygmy seahorses are what they have been encouraged to do for many years.
I remember at BTS a few years back, there was this presentation by a photographer who was talking about how he manipulated a frogfish to get the shot he wanted. And they had the rules of non-manipulation in the show!
Despite the hypocrisy, I like the fact the BTS managed to act on discovery of an infringement of a rule. It builds credibility for the contest and a stern warning to those who try. Doesn't mean they'll catch everyone or that people will stop trying, but it sets a nice precedent.

Joe,that's not exposing your behind, that's just called stirring!

[Tio Loco]

Okay folks, shall I serve my ass on a plate?  I have had some private correspondance and additional foresight into the matter of the boxer crab picture.  This is not my feedback but I respect that of the garibaldi who messaged me this.  So here goes:

While writing my material for an article article that goes out to dozens of UW
Photo Societies and scuba clubs for their newsletters, I was searching the
web for info on Boxer Crabs. I came across the Boxer crab discussion and saw the pics from John Gordon.  Since I'm not on that forum, I
was wondering if anyone there offerred the fact that everyone on the boat
knew the crabs were moved?  There was even a discussion on the boat about
that shot not being eligible for contests...was that mentioned?

...

With all due respect Joe, your source is full of it. I was there.

There were only three of us on the boat that day besides the guides, so it's not like there were conversations that I was not privvy to, and there was no conversation at all about the possibility of the crabs being moved. The possiblity of that happening never even occurred to us.

What you don't see with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth.  ~Jewish Proverb

[mreid]

Has anyone received notification about their prize? I haven't.

[Fisheyedave]

With all due respect Joe, your source is full of it. I was there.

There were only three of us on the boat that day besides the guides, so it's not like there were conversations that I was not privvy to, and there was no conversation at all about the possibility of the crabs being moved. The possiblity of that happening never even occurred to us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As the 3rd man I can back Tio up. The dive guides found the crabs
then called us in. Only the guides handled the crabs. We were very happy to see and enjoy the crabs!

By the way, some us use metal rods also, they are used to steady the camera
rather than holding onto the reef even with a finger. These rods can improve your technique, and can be very useful in a current.The rods also stop those stinging hydriods burning the hands! . I find they are indispensable, just make sure
you look where the rod is placed.
Dave