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4:3 to 16:9 conversion questions.


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#1 CamDiver

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 02:56 PM

Hi guys,
More of a shooter than an editor so I have a couple of questions. Been shooting 4:3 since time started and now looking to convert a new project to 16:9. This can be achieved with a great new software called Mediastream, I was pointed to it by contacts at The Ocean Channel who use it for all of their conversion, PAL>NTSC and vice versa, issues. It's also a free download from www.squared5.com with versions for both PC and MAC, strongly suggest you get it. Haven't looked at it in depth but potential there to also go DV PAL for example to NTSC Mpeg2 in one go saving one encoding (generation loss) session.

Anyway, getting off subject. SO I have a product in 4:3 (720 x 576) and I wanna go 16:9 (1024 x 576). My questions are basically:

1) Field dominance - upper or lower field? Shooting in PAL DV if that makes a difference.
2) Deinterlace the stream or not?

The rest is pretty self explanatory. If an explanation to these issues can also be given that would be great as it would help this "Old" (Mike and Dean) dog learn a few new tricks.

Cheers,
Mark.
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#2 wagsy

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 05:01 PM

Hi Mark

Will check out that Mediastream software abit later, looks good though, thanks for that.

I make NTSC DVDs using the flag method. Encode out a 720/480 25fps from a 720/576 PAL timline and run it through DGPulldown and burn the file to a NTSC DVD. No quality loss as it just tricks the DVD players into runing it as NTSC speed 29 fps. :D

As far as I know 4.3 and 16.9 have the same 720/576 PAL pixels but the pixel size is different.
4.3 = 1.067
16.9 = 1.422

You can just interpret the footage in your editing program but that makes 4.3 look stretched. Tells the 4.3 pixels to be 16.9 pixels

You can open a 16.9 project and then zoom the 4.3 in till it fills the area. (loss of quality)

You can crop/add balck bars to the top and bottom of 4.3 to look like 16.9 but you will losse some of the picture.

Keep the field dominance the same as source.
Mini DV is interlaced.

If you are making DVD then encode it out to a progressive mpeg2 file if you can as its heaps better than interlaced ones.
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#3 mgrovermd

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 11:03 AM

Would you happen to have a link to the Mediastrem software? Haven't been able to locate it.
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#4 miguelvideosub

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 01:52 PM

Hi Camdiver.
I don´t know so much about the question you make, but sometimes, to create 16:9 from 4:3, I used this plugin for premiere( don´t know if is your editor program). Here is the link if you want to look at it..( at least is free)
Aspect Ratio Converters
I thought that upper field was always por NTSC and lower field for PAL. I had many troubles in the past when I continued intelarcing. I prefer nowdays desinterlance , so I can create mpeg with different programs without havin jump on my pictures...(Depends the circunstance, I use Ulead DVD movie factory, Tmpenc express, or Nero vision express) To create mpeg, I use After Effect, and always desinterlance.
mgroverdmd, I found the link at the adress that camdiver wrote at this post..
here is the link.. squared 5
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#5 DeanB

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 10:43 AM

You boys are feeling me all the way.

I was just thinking of putting some of my old footage (4:3) on my new timeline (16:9) and 'wadda ya know' is if by some psycho, transient, telekinetic mind babble here's the answers. Fresh on my P.C door step.

Cheers big ears

Dive safe

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#6 wagsy

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 05:43 PM

O yeh you can do that as well. :lol:

I can put 4.3 on 16.9 timeline and also put 16.9 on a 4.3 timline in Premiere Pro and it fits it automatically but it will make the 4.3 look abit out of shape.

Putting mini DV in a HDV timeline is realy funny, shows you how much bigger HDV is.

Yep PAL is lower and NTSC DV is upper.

Mediastrem software is HERE ZIP FILE
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#7 wagsy

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 05:21 AM

HI Mark

Well I tried out that Mediastream software and made some PAL and NTSC DV files from 1440/1080 PAL m2t files.

Played each clip and it does do a nice job on the NTSC but is does frame jerk abit compated to the PAL file I made of the same clips.

I can get smoother NTSC using Procoder.

I think I will keep using the dgpulldown method as it plays smooth with great quality for making NTSC DVD's.
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#8 wagsy

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 05:34 AM

Oops...spoke to soon :lol:

I just clicked on the deinterlace and frame blending options for output NTSC DV File.

Not bad... after all, maybe softens the image abit.

I'll see if I can frame serve to it from the Premiere Pro Timeline for straight outputs.
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#9 Steve Douglas

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 08:22 AM

Took a quick look at the PDF files that come with media stream. It appears to be strictly PC based and not Mac compatible.
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#10 CamDiver

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:53 PM

Steve,
Go directly to the website Mediastream and go to the download page where you have the option for either PC or Mac versions. I've used this in conjunction with files from FCP5 and it works well. The software is only 1.7Meg so it shouldn't clutter your server too much.

Wags, the DGPulldown you mention is a characteristic of which software? When transporting to Mpeg2 in FCP 5 I can only change the upper or lower field dominance. There is no way to select either interlaced or progressive.

File>export using QT conversion>Mpeg2>Standard=NTSC or PAL>aspect ratio selection>quality 2 Pass VBR @max 8.1Mbps>quality =best> upper/lower/auto field dominance and save to parent directory.

I have also looked at doing this through Mediastream but to tell you the truth the whole codec options available are like a gibberish jungle to me. Do you have the interlaced / progressive option with H.264 and can this then be read by DVD? I was aways under the impression that DVD readers only read Mpeg2 compression files, the quality of the image obviously coming from the originating format. Also you mentioned about audio files but so far all of my files have been .aif and they work fine with the DVD's I produce. These are clearly the accompanying audio files paired with the Mpeg 2 video file.

Cheers,
Mark.

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#11 wagsy

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Posted 18 May 2006 - 04:00 PM

Hey Mark
The tiny pulldown program can be found HERE
You just run you encoded Mpeg2 file through it, takes only a minute.
25-29fps settings...then use that new file to burn you NTSC DVD.

Aiff are MAC audio type files and you are okay with them as well, I have never used them as I on PC.
All PAL DVD players can play MPEG audio tracks, but not all NTSC players can play MPEG audio tracks.
(DVD audio types - mpa, m2a, ac3, dts, wav, aiff, pcm)

Mediastream does not seem to be able to give you control to make DVD mpeg2 spec files. DVD video file specs are - mpg, mpeg, mp2, m2v.
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#12 CamDiver

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 10:41 PM

Hey Wags,
The DGPulldown filter you use is a Windows app so no joy for us Mac users :blink: . Been in touch with the guy who made it, Douglas Grant (hence the DG) and he's no plans to look at creating a similar filter for Mac computers so for the moment still looking around for a solution. This is predominantly an issue for a festival I'm about to enter. Same old story, the festival is U.S based so only films submitted on NTSC MiniDV will be considered for review. Such is life.

Thanks for all the tips though.

Oh also gotta say a big Hi to you and Kelly from a mutual friend, Terue Shimura, a Japanese girl who worked in your neck of the woods last year I think. She's working over here in Palau at the mo and I mentioned that I have some email based contact with you. She was working some of the whaleshark boats out there for around 6 months I think. Anyway all the best from her.

Cheers paul.
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#13 wagsy

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 04:47 PM

HI Mark
Thats funny, small world she was with a guy called Ryan...are they still togetther?
Tell her we both say gday.....I think we need to head off somewhere soon as well....

Thats a bummer there is no DGPulldown for the MAC's. It works a treat and none of my NTSC DVD customers have come back with any complaints yet :blink: . I like it best as it keeps the quality the same and there is no frame blending or flickers that sometimes software PAL- NTSC encoders put out.

Yes in this day and age they should just get a multiplay DVD player or use a SONY camera to play both NTSC and PAL tapes..i'm sure they will soon.
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#14 CamDiver

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 05:06 PM

Hi Paul,
Terue came here single and remains that way I believe.

Regarding the DGPulldown for Macs, if you know of any computer boffins I have contacted the guy who made the filter and he's basically offered the source code to anyone who would want to develop the filter for Mac applications, so long as it remains freeware. Could be something for someone here at Wetpixel to look into.......any takers.

If you guys have never been to Palau there's always a place for you to crash at mine. Dunno if I can get you a deal on the diving but at least that would eliminate any hotel bills etc. Let me know what you decide.

Hope all is well. Thanks for your input.
Mark.

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#15 wagsy

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 06:43 PM

Well there you go, I thought she was getting hitched to the guy.

Palau... thanks for your offer...hey where exact are you there.

Thats nice of the guy to give out the source code...maybe Eric can help, he does or did that kind of stuff....or maybe he has a nerdi mate that can do it.
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#16 CamDiver

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 07:33 PM

Hi Paul,
I own the concession here and am pretty much present most of the busy season. I tend to try and book any commissions or filming gigs between April and November which is pretty slow around here. The diving is still fantastic and allows for product development and more personal filming projects.

Anytime you're thinking of Palau just give me a shout and I'll see if I can get the info you need.

Cheers,
Mark.

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#17 wagsy

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 07:59 PM

Hey Mark
Cheers for that.
What a great place, it looks fanastic and you seem to have yourself a great job there.

We will certainly hit you with for some info if we decide to come over sometime.

Likewise here, although I think you have a much better location.
We get hit by winds and swell so the really nice days for clear blue water are far and few. To the normal person it looks nice looking into the water but once you get in, looking horizontal through it is another story.

However we do get allot of animals and it's rather unspoiled/remote. There has been times where I have got in the water with like 200 Manta Rays all sitting behind the main reef...
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#18 CamDiver

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:12 PM

Sharks on almost every dive, Mantas in abundance from late December thru March, Macro critters albeit somewhat lacking for my tastes, WWII Japanese Wrecks, Lakes filled with stingless Jellyfish, Kamikaze Drift Dives, Amazing drop off's etc etc etc. Palau kicks some serious a**. Even filmed an errant Whaleshark on Blue Corner last January, mind you the viz was only about 30m so a bit fuzzy!!!!

Anytime you need a place to crash, you're welcome.

Cheers,
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#19 wagsy

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 12:55 AM

Yeh yeh...rub it in...i get it... :blink:

Well at least I get to go out on dive boats like this :o
Posted Image
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#20 Steve Douglas

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 08:15 AM

Thats a heck of a dive boat? What's its name and where is it moored?
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