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Tipping is in the culture


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#161 stewsmith

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 10:18 PM

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that tipping was an English import into the colonies.

My understanding is that English taverns had no waiter and people served themselves ... but when rich folks would come around, people would "wait" around to see if the rich folk needed anything, and then would accept a "tip" when they would clear their plates or fill their glasses. Eventually, the inn and tavern-keepers hired such folk as "waiters" and paid them small wages ... wages that were supplemented by tips. The rest is history.

So blame yourself and your caste system.



That may be so, but we have moved on. When are the rest of the world going to follow. We used to have slaves as well but we dont anymore.



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Edited by stewsmith, 13 August 2009 - 10:25 PM.

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#162 Steve Douglas

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:22 AM

Ahhh....the thread that will not die! :)

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#163 jeremypayne

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:47 AM

That may be so, but we have moved on. When are the rest of the world going to follow. We used to have slaves as well but we dont anymore.


Equating slavery and tipping is a bit strange.
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#164 stewsmith

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 12:27 PM

Equating slavery and tipping is a bit strange.


LOL... it wasnt meant like that.... I was trying to say that we used to have slaves but dont any more. You were making a point that tipping started over here. I was replying saying, but we dont do it anymore. I was not putting the two together Jeremy.

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#165 jeremypayne

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 02:53 PM

LOL... it wasnt meant like that.... I was trying to say that we used to have slaves but dont any more. You were making a point that tipping started over here. I was replying saying, but we dont do it anymore. I was not putting the two together Jeremy.

Stew

I hear ya.

It was an interesting contrast.

This really is the thread that will not die ...
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#166 RedSeaDiver

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 02:47 AM

What about the Red Sea? What is the norm out there as regards tipping these days?

Edited by RedSeaDiver, 17 August 2009 - 02:48 AM.

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#167 stewsmith

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 04:58 AM

What about the Red Sea? What is the norm out there as regards tipping these days?


I have not ever seen any form of pressure to tip the guides out there, although i do and i have only had 1 trip years ago where i didnt feel the guide earned a tip as she only dove 3 times in a week !!!! But the rest of the crew deserved one so a tip was given to them. In my experience the Egyptian guides love their jobs, are enthusiastic and try to make sure that the guests are having a good time. This isnt to say all of them are like this, but the ones i have come across on liveaboards have been. BIG Ahmed on the Grand Sea Serpent would take drink orders last thing at night and deliver a freshly brewed mug of tea or coffee to my cabin every morning when he came to wake me up. Service like this is great and of course make divers tip a little bit more and enjoy their trip a little bit more also. I think i usually tip around 100-150 for a weeks liveaboard which is a tip from me and my wife. Again if someone on the boats go out of their way to make it more enjoyable then they get a little extra. Guys on the zodiacs that look after both of our rigs are usually tipped seperately. Again this is a personal preference and because i tip this amount does not mean that others have to.

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#168 weedray

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 10:31 AM

You Americans are far more generous with the tips.. Indeed I agree

Edited by weedray, 24 January 2010 - 10:31 AM.


#169 Kiwidiver.com

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 10:05 PM

I thought I would leave a response from someone working in the dive industry in Thailand and in the past Egypt, that receives tips regularly (depending on where my guests come from)

Working in an industry where a professional earns 20 euro a day for what can be up to a 10 hour day and costs of working, work permits, visas, dive equipment, servicing, camera gear and replacing dive equipment eats up most if not all of your money tips are really appreciated.

While we do not expect tips from everyone when you go that extra mile for a customer it is appreciated when it is recognized by someone by slipping you a few notes and saying thanks for your help today here go and have a couple of beers on me.

Personally I grew up in a non tipping culture and only became aware of the impact when choosing this line of work. I don't think a tip needs to be a percentage of what you have spent it should be as much or as little as you are comfortable with. As someone who receives tips I would never feel insulted by receiving no tip or a low tip as we are in the service industry after all.

I use the beer meter to gauge tips (not that I ever spend it on beer myself) If someone does a hard days work I tip them the equivalent of what a couple of beers cost at the local bar for each day they have looked after me. If they sit on the back of the boat texting their girlfriend all day – I wouldn't bother.

If someone gives you exceptional service you may want to buy them dinner (or tip equivalently). This is how I gauge how to tip others who provide me service. I personally spend all my tips on dive equipment, servicing and further advancing my training so that I can provide a better service to my customers.

So receiving a tip could mean the difference between getting my regulators serviced or not.

I would never pay a tip up front and I would never pay it to the business owner. I tip as a sign of appreciation and I want the person I tip to know I appreciate them so I would give it to them personaly.

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#170 John Bantin

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 07:30 AM

I always tell people that my remaining grey hair didn't come cheap. I believe when it comes to tipping, it's important to give what is considered normal at the place you are at.
I learned the hard way. A little shoes-shine buy did such a good job of my shoes in Instanbul that I generously gave him a 20 dollar tip. He ran like hell but the other shoes shine boys caught him, beat him up and took it from him. I wasn't very generous after all, was I?

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#171 Drew

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 08:49 AM

I believe that the trick to tipping is to give the amount that is customary in that place. Too much is as bad as too little. I was once so pleased with the efforts of a little boy who cleaned my shoes (renovated might be a better word) in Instanbul that I gave him $10 tip. He looked at it, snatched it and ran leaving his cleaning kit behind. Why? Because he was pursued by his colleagues who probably beat him to a pulp in order to take it from him.
Largesse can often cause unhappiness. However, if you want to send some dollars to my children, please feel free - although I might snatch it from them!



I always tell people that my remaining grey hair didn't come cheap. I believe when it comes to tipping, it's important to give what is considered normal at the place you are at.
I learned the hard way. A little shoes-shine buy did such a good job of my shoes in Instanbul that I generously gave him a 20 dollar tip. He ran like hell but the other shoes shine boys caught him, beat him up and took it from him. I wasn't very generous after all, was I?


Hmmm John, how come the tip increased $10 over the last 4 years? Is this inflation adjusted due to the Lira dropping all the zeros in 2007? :) :D

Speaking of tipping, I was told (off) by 2 waiters in 2 different restos in Capetown that the norm is now 10-15%. Just when you think you know the local customs, they go and change due to higher international client traffic. One even chased me outside the resto to ask for the full 15% because our party was over 7. I politely refused since there was nothing written and 11.2% was more than adequate for slow service and botched orders.

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#172 stewsmith

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 10:31 AM

This subject will never die. I really cant understand why we are expected to pay 10 sometimes 15 percent of a liveaboard cost as a tip. That is just outrageous. Lets again do some sums.

A liveaboard has 18 passengers paying $4750 for a ten day trip. They are expected to leave 15% each so 18 x $475 = $8550 divide that by say a maximum of 10 crew and they each get a whopping $855 each for a ten day trip. I am sorry but that is just wrong.

What has happened to the fee of $4750, did the crew not get paid any wages from that amount. If not, why the hell not. 18 passengers each paying $4750 gathers a very healthy kitty of $85500. I am sorry but fuel, food and a bit of nitrox, running of an office, port fees and maintenance of the boat does not equate to there not being enough money left over to pay the crew. This is for a 10 day trip. so multiply that by 34 trips per year and you have $2,907.000.

To say that most of the crews wages comes from tips is not acceptable and the tight fisted owners need to start bloody paying their employees. I am fed up with the same old sh1t. I tip when I get good service and have a good time, not because it is expected. It also makes me laugh that most American boat operators even have the cheek to put on their websites that this percent or that percent is an expected tip. lol GET REAL.

A tip is gratuity and needs to be earned, earn it you MAY get it.

Now I am rattled again

Stew

PS and for the record I consider myself a good tipper when people have made my holiday special

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#173 MIKE POWELL

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 11:05 AM

I caught this thread late, but I have to share my two cents...consider it a tip. :)

Many moons ago I worked as a DM at Bob Soto's in Grand Cayman and being one of the most bargain dive operations on the island we were rarely tipped and really knew what NOT to expect. On those rare occasions we were tipped it allowed us a decent meal and a few brews, otherwise with our minimum wage pay we were living paycheck to paycheck and drinking beer and eating french fries with tartar sauce pretending they were shrimp. Of course living arrangements were substandard....mine was a fold up cot in the kitchen/living room of a tiny rental with no A/C.

If you can afford a $5k trip surely you can afford to tip your crew who make a measly wage and work their asses off to keep you safe and comfy....if not maybe you should dive in cheaper places.

TIP and don't be a w*****!
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#174 stewsmith

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 11:07 AM

If you can afford a $5k trip surely you can afford to tip your crew who make a measly wage and work their asses off to keep you safe and comfy....if not maybe you should dive in cheaper places.

TIP and don't be a w*****!


who the hell are you calling a wan-er

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#175 stewsmith

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 11:19 AM

I caught this thread late, but I have to share my two cents...consider it a tip. :)

Many moons ago I worked as a DM at Bob Soto's in Grand Cayman and being one of the most bargain dive operations on the island we were rarely tipped and really knew what NOT to expect. On those rare occasions we were tipped it allowed us a decent meal and a few brews, otherwise with our minimum wage pay we were living paycheck to paycheck and drinking beer and eating french fries with tartar sauce pretending they were shrimp. Of course living arrangements were substandard....mine was a fold up cot in the kitchen/living room of a tiny rental with no A/C.

If you can afford a $5k trip surely you can afford to tip your crew who make a measly wage and work their asses off to keep you safe and comfy....if not maybe you should dive in cheaper places.

TIP and don't be a w****!



You are comparing working for a bargain dive operation against what I am describing as a top end operation. why should a guy working on a $4750 boat be tipped more than a guy working for a bargain operator. That just doesn't figure. Do they not deserve the same if they give an equal level of service.

Yes I am fortunate and can afford a $5k trip but that doesnt mean I will pay a tip on demand. Like I said, earn it you may get it.

You had a choice, you didnt have to work there. But regardless of not being paid very much and not getting much in the way of tips, you still worked there because I guess you actually loved doing your job rather than the money. Which if you read all of the previous postings about tipping is what I have said all along. The trouble that I have experienced is some DM's are so engrossed in how many hundreds of dollars they are going to make from each trip that they forget to give the customer any over the top service and in some circumstances below standards service. Why the hell should I have to tip someone who has not given me good service.

I think a lot of the world live paycheck to paycheck, you dont have to be a DM to be like that. If you thought that you were going to get rich by being a DM then PADI mis advised you BIG TIME.

And yes when i have taken $5k trips I do tip 10-15%, not because the brochure says so, but if it has been earned. I have also refused to pay it as it hasn't been earned.

Stew

Edited by Drew, 06 September 2010 - 11:49 PM.

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#176 MIKE POWELL

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 11:25 AM

Wasn't meant for you Stew....relax! Not meant for anyone as I only read a few posts.

Just thinking back of the days where W**** walked off the boat without so much as a thank you even though we basically had to do everything for them short of breathing for them.

Unless a DM drops my camera or is rude as hell do I not tip....I've seen people not tip just because the conditions were poor or they got seasick....like the crew can really control the weather.

Those are the folks I'm calling W*****!
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#177 PRC

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 11:26 AM

Have to agree with your math Stew - Not sure that many operators manage 34 trips per year but there we are.

Fundamentally this has all come about by the culture and attitudes prevalent in the sometime richest nation on the planet (?) - the USA.

From the operators point of view if the punters will ultimately pay the wages by tipping - heck why not, looks like profit to me.

Unfortunately we seem to be up against a very large cultural problem that does not seem to be likely to go away any time in the near future.

Like you I do not begrudge tipping as such - but I do have a tough time with a built in expectation of payment.

Have also come across some cases where the 'split' of the tip was somewhat 'loaded', and not necessarily in the favour of those who performed.

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#178 stewsmith

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 11:42 AM

Have to agree with your math Stew - Not sure that many operators manage 34 trips per year but there we are.

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#179 loftus

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 03:49 PM

but I do have a tough time with a built in expectation of payment.


Remember this only an 'expectation' of payment, sure suits me a lot better to at least have that at my discretion, then to be forced to pay a tip that is included in the bill as is frequently done in Europe.
I tip, and like to tip well if service is exceptional, but by the same token if service sucks don't expect a dime, I won't be 'guilted' into it.
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#180 DeanB

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 10:23 PM

who the hell are you calling a wan-er



:) :D

I'd seriously give a big tip for that 'extra' service although it would depend on the roughness of the hand... :)

I'd tip how much you think it deserves not what they want... Crikey if I put 15% on my invoices I'd run out of work pretty quick.

Can you get arrested for bad tipping ... I think/hope not

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