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What dive qualification?


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#21 ssra30

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 09:33 PM

Personally I don't think certification really means anything much except to show that you have been instructed formally. Technically I had a Padi Rescue diver certificate but lately let it expired because I did not keep up with the first aid/basic life support card. I used to have advance cardiac life support (ACLS) card for years while I was in the US as that was part of the requirement for my job however there is no requirement or ACLS course available over here in Thailand. My rather obnoxious PADI/SDI dive instructor/ex-dive buddy tried to convince me that I should pay him to let him certify me in basic life support to keep my rescue diver card valid and that all of my real life CPR experience that I do on a routine basis does not count because I have access to assistants, equipments and medication at my finger trip. So I need to let him teach me his "blow here and press there" method of CPR whcih will be more appropriate to scuba diving situation so I can truly be a rescue diver! Somehow, his attitude is not all that dissimilar to what PADI is trying to preach so I think I will stick with my advance open water cert. just to keep DMs off my back when I go diving :blink:

#22 PRC

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 10:01 PM

Time in the water & boyancy control are more important than outright quallies though look into DIR-F if it is available in your location.

Also dive in different types of location. The English Channel is a lot different to the Med or Red Sea, being happy in all of these types of location is a real asset. Myself I would love a chance to ice dive one of these days.

Having met 'instructors' with only a hundred dives who had never been to more than 35m I long ago lost confidence in outright qualifications (other than DIR - Sorry Mike).

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#23 MikeVeitch

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 10:20 PM

thats alright Paul... shows you spend too much time on the internet.. :blink:

hahaha

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#24 timoma

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 11:02 PM

... Myself I would love a chance to ice dive one of these days...

Paul C

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well,

I'm in to arrange a WP Ice Dive "specialty" in Finland next winter if we get enough interest.

I can even drag in a teaching status PADI instructor for those who want a nice piece of plastic as a souvenir :blink:

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#25 Paul Kay

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 12:16 AM

To reiterate; buoyancy, buoyancy, buoyancy, buoyancy (even in drysuits, honest!). Cannot be stressed enough.

Secondly a comment about a friend of mine who, after 25 years uncertified diving decided that he ought to get a bit of paper to satisfy requirements for a dive holiday abroad. His rather embarassed instructor (who had very few dives under his belt) could see that my friend was utterly at home in the water, but did have problems convincing him that diving with a buddy was a good idea (I'm not actually sure that he's convinced now, many years later!).

Perhaps 'appropriate (good) dive practices' should be added to qualifications, experience and buoyancy?

This is an interesting topic as I see 'rules' imposed (often in the name of health and safety) which sometimes increase risk rather than reduce it and appear to have a theoretical rather than practical basis for their imposition. Interpretation of these 'rules' is sometimes really bizarre.
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#26 aczyzyk

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 01:47 AM

What dive qualification do you have?


CMAS***, IANTD Advanced Nitrox

What level do you feel is sufficient/appropriate for underwater photography?


I think certificates became totaly meaningless these days. I've seen DMs who required babysitting and OWDs who did very well at 50m in 4C dark water with strong currents.
I did my first * in 1991, ** in 1997 and *** in 2003. The level of difficulty went rapidly down each time.

In 1991 it took 6 months of training once a week for 2h in a pool and 2h of theory. Then 2 weeks of training in a lake. Around 40 people started the traing and 9 completed it. If someone had * I knew I could trust them underwater.

In 1997 (PADI was just starting to appear on Polish market, most people did not know wat it was at that time) it took 10 days of training in a lake to get **. ALL excercises were easier (i.e. shorter distances to swim etc.). But still they would not give you cetrificate until you could do all of them.

In 2003 it took 5 days of diving in a sea to get ***. Again ALL excersises were easier than the ones for ** in 1997.

I think what was required in 1997 is way too much for today's equipment, but than getting AOWD is unacceptably easy. How can one be advanced if they did 20 dives and never ever practised any rescue?
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#27 Accipiter_13

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 03:32 AM

I agree,

I don't think there is a specific qualification that means you can take a camera underwater.

Once you are confident with your kit, bouyancy, skills then it would be fine to take a camera underwater.

I also think awareness of your surroundings is important and this is something that can't really be taught but comes from experience.

I am a BSAC sports diver with about 80 dives and have just started taking a camera with me recently.

I also think diving regularly helps alot.

Cheers
Matthew

#28 DesertEagle

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 04:24 AM

Way back in my college days (15 years ago) I took a NAUI course. Our instructor hammered into us the importance of good buoancy control. We probably got more pool time, since the course was 2 hours from open water. I think the effect was that most of us became very comfortable on SCUBA. The university gave me 2 credits for the course and I got a nifty new NAUI Openwater I card. There was no talk of advanced courses at that time.

Looking at it today, I think too many divers rush into dvanced courses. Take your time, enjoy your surroundings and get more experience. Dive with people who are more experienced than you are. It's the same thing I did learning skiing. I've seen enough new "advanced" divers who lacked a decent level of comfort in the water. It translates to poor buoyancy.
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#29 pmooney

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:40 AM

Every body seems to agree that it's not the team or agency that issued the ticket , it is rather the compentency of the skills that the ticket equates you with having...

I agree whole heartledly that bouyancy skills and great respect and understanding for the particular diving environment and conditions are critical to being a good photo / video diver.

Me - Have been in diving at instructor / instructor trainer level since the late 70's. worked fulltime in this field aside from a few little breaks into the more serious side of diving. Served on the advisory committee for the Australian Standards Association and was instrumental in introducing new standards in diver recognicition / qualifications for the filmimg industry in australia.

Currently serve on the advisory committee to the Marine Parks Authority as the dive representive.

Successfully had tourist image makers ( photo & video guys ) working in recreational workplaces where recreational diving activities were being conducted ratified and separated from the occupational diver as described in AS 2215.1

The most significant benefit of this was to keep the professional tourist image maker ( typically a DM ior Instructor ) within the recreational workplace framework, and in turn fully covered by the public liability and professional indemnity insurances that are required by the certifying agences PADI , WUW, NAIU etc.

Overview of ADAS diver qualifications

ADAS Part 1 outline

ADAS Part 2 outline

ADAS Part 3 outline

ADAS Seafood (Aquaculture) diver

ADAS Onshore Diving Supervisor Qualification

Overview of ADAS diver qualifications


Training Programs

ADAS training programs are designed specifically to conform with the requirements of the Australian Standard AS 2815 - Training and Certification of Occupational Divers. This Standard was developed by the SF/17 Diving Committee of Standards Australia in conjunction with ADAS and overseas diver training authorities, expressly to define the minimum acceptable competency standards for the various levels of occupational divers.

Australian Standard AS 2815

AS 2815 is in four parts, with qualification being required at each level before undertaking further training.

Part 1: AS 2815.1

This Part addresses the training activities and competencies required for the training and accreditation of air divers who are required to work safely and competently using self-contained underwater breathing apparatus (SCUBA) is for no-decompression diving only and covers the use of hand tools underwater to depths of 30 metres in accordance with AS/NZS2299.1:1999.

Divers with this level of accreditation may, for example, work in the scientific, fishing, marine archaeology, engineering inspection fields.

Note: ADAS Part 1 is equivalent to HSE Part IV.

Part 2: AS 2815.2

This Part addresses the training activities and competencies required for the training and accreditation of air divers who are required to work safely and competently:

using surface-supplied underwater breathing apparatus (SSBA) to depths of 30 metres; and
on sites where no surface compression chambers are required by AS 2299 to be present on site.
This is the minimum level of training required to work as a construction diver. Training in the use of powered tools, cutting and welding, underwater construction and underwater explosives equips the diver with the basic skills necessary to work safely underwater.

Note: ADAS Part 2 is equivalent to HSE Part III.

Part 3: AS 2815.3

This Part addresses the training activities and competencies required for the training and accreditation of air divers who are required to work safely and competently:

using surface-supplied underwater breathing apparatus (SSBA) to depths of 50 metres; and
on sites with surface compression chambers in conformance with the requirements of AS/NZS 2299.1 (1999).
Diver

Training Programs

ADAS training programs are designed specifically to conform with the requirements of the Australian Standard AS 2815 - Training and Certification of Occupational Divers. This Standard was developed by the SF/17 Diving Committee of Standards Australia in conjunction with ADAS and overseas diver training authorities, expressly to define the minimum acceptable competency standards for the various levels of occupational divers.

Australian Standard AS 2815

AS 2815 is in four parts, with qualification being required at each level before undertaking further training.

Part 1: AS 2815.1

This Part addresses the training activities and competencies required for the training and accreditation of air divers who are required to work safely and competently using self-contained underwater breathing apparatus (SCUBA) is for no-decompression diving only and covers the use of hand tools underwater to depths of 30 metres in accordance with AS/NZS2299.1:1999.

Divers with this level of accreditation may, for example, work in the scientific, fishing, marine archaeology, engineering inspection fields.

Note: ADAS Part 1 is equivalent to HSE Part IV.

Part 2: AS 2815.2

This Part addresses the training activities and competencies required for the training and accreditation of air divers who are required to work safely and competently:

using surface-supplied underwater breathing apparatus (SSBA) to depths of 30 metres; and
on sites where no surface compression chambers are required by AS 2299 to be present on site.
This is the minimum level of training required to work as a construction diver. Training in the use of powered tools, cutting and welding, underwater construction and underwater explosives equips the diver with the basic skills necessary to work safely underwater.

Note: ADAS Part 2 is equivalent to HSE Part III.

Part 3: AS 2815.3

This Part addresses the training activities and competencies required for the training and accreditation of air divers who are required to work safely and competently:

using surface-supplied underwater breathing apparatus (SSBA) to depths of 50 metres; and
on sites with surface compression chambers in conformance with the requirements of AS/NZS 2299.1 (1999).
Divers wishing to work offshore in the oil and gas industry must be accredited to Part 3 as a minimum.

Note: ADAS Part 3 is equivalent to HSE Part I.

Part 4: AS 2815.4

This Part addresses the training activities and competencies required for the training and accreditation of experienced air divers to work safely and competently as bellmen and lockout divers This level of accreditation covers diving to any depth using the full range of breathing apparatus, including saturation diving. It can only be undertaken after a minimum of 12 months stipulated experience as a Part 3 diver.

Note: ADAS Part 4 is equivalent to HSE Part II.

Restricted Accreditation

Restricted accreditation for Parts 2 and 3 is available to those divers whose diving duties require only limited use of plant, tools and equipment. A diver may obtain a restricted accreditation by completing only the modules relevant to his/her desired work i.e. by deleting the four modules which cover underwater construction techniques and equipment: - use of powered tools, cutting and welding, underwater construction and underwater explosives. A restricted diver may later upgrade to full accreditation by completing the outstanding modules as specified in the Standard.

s wishing to work offshore in the oil and gas industry must be accredited to Part 3 as a minimum.

Note: ADAS Part 3 is equivalent to HSE Part I.

Part 4: AS 2815.4

This Part addresses the training activities and competencies required for the training and accreditation of experienced air divers to work safely and competently as bellmen and lockout divers This level of accreditation covers diving to any depth using the full range of breathing apparatus, including saturation diving. It can only be undertaken after a minimum of 12 months stipulated experience as a Part 3 diver.

Note: ADAS Part 4 is equivalent to HSE Part II.

Restricted Accreditation

Restricted accreditation for Parts 2 and 3 is available to those divers whose diving duties require only limited use of plant, tools and equipment. A diver may obtain a restricted accreditation by completing only the modules relevant to his/her desired work i.e. by deleting the four modules which cover underwater construction techniques and equipment: - use of powered tools, cutting and welding, underwater construction and underwater explosives. A restricted diver may later upgrade to full accreditation by completing the outstanding modules as specified in the Standard.


as an example

Some of these qualifications are required on filmsets or shoots that require 240 v power / cables for light rigs

:D :blink: :D


I guess we DIR ..... :) ;) :ninja: :lol:

#30 scorpio_fish

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:11 AM

Certification level is irrelevant. Experience, tantamount to good buoyancy control, is the pre-requisite.

I just did an optional pool session for a photo specialty student. This student has an AOW card, several specialties and one ocean diving trip under his belt. Teaching him photography was a waste of time. I spent the session almost entirely on buoyancy control, approach, and finning technique.

Let's face it, regardless of training agency, certification level, people acquire buoyancy skills at different rates.

I wish we could require in water test, like a drivers license, before allowing someone in the water with a camera. Won't happen.

What bothers me more than new photogs with inadequate buoyancy is the new photog who is an experienced diver and demonstrates a wanton disregard for the reef. I spent 10 days on the Ocean Rover with a Doctor who had plenty of dive experience (3rd Ocean Rover trip), but had a camera for the first time. He was a one man reef wrecking machine. "Excuse me, maybe that crinoid stuck to your knee is a sign." Despite my protests to the staff, he continued. I chased him several times, but could never get there in time to yank his fins off the reef. Sorry, rant off.
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#31 Paul Kay

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:19 AM

I hold and at times operate under the regulations requiring an HSE Part 4 diving qualification. When I do so I am sometimes provided with an 'in-water' standby diver as required by the regulations. HOWEVER, this does not mean that the 'in-water' standby is of an use other than to conform to regulations, in fact at times they are a positive encumberance and have little, no or even a negative effect on safety! Even regulations need to be considered and if possible a 'best and safest practice' approach applied which may mean operating above rather than to regulations.

What no qualification or regulation seems able to do is to address the assessment of a diver for being both competent at what he/she is doing (ie taking underwater stills or video) as well as being safe whilst doing it! Alex's original post is difficult to answer as holding a diving qualification alone means very little. Training merely enables a diver to begin to gain experience underwater and is not in itself an assurance of competence. Even experienced divers can have problems when task-loaded in an unfamiliar situation.
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#32 fdog

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:53 AM

Bahahaha

james (fdog) you read Scubaboard too much....!!!

Probably 2/3rds of the people on WP have no idea what DIR is...  (i know i had no clue until i saw it on SB... )

<snip>

Advanced BUOYANCY.... 

but thats a skill, not a cert... :blink:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ha ha ha!

Truth be told, I was lucky enough to be a "technical diver" (now there's a term in search of a permenant definition) before GUE was formed. I recall the Kool-Aid term coming from the rigid adherence to "the way" even though it was optimised for caves instead of open water. You may notice I do NOT stray into the DIR forum...too many emotions...wouldn't be surprised to see them flare up here...

With that aside, I truly think DIR-F is a good course, if it could be taught without the One Single Way overtones. It is at the heart bouyancy control and finning (how many here on WP can execute a backwards fin kick?) which are good in any photographer's arsenal.

Come to think, if I was to teach a photography course, I'd probabally start with a hour in the pool practicing bouyancy.

All the best, James

#33 jarhed

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 07:22 AM

My first response when reading this thread was that the cert wasn't as important to experiance. However, I do feel that the PADI rescue diver class was a pretty good class and I became alot better diver because I took it.

just to take a variation on the thread, for all of us out there that do alot of solo diving, some self rescue skills can be pretty important, I personally feel much more confortable having taken the rescue class (even though it doesn't focus on self resuce) when I solo dive.

Thoughts??

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#34 ce4jesus

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 07:50 AM

As someone who was just "hurried" through the AOW class during my last vacation (BTW lessoned well learned...no classes while trying to relax!), I can tell you certification doesn't make a diver. My wife and I were basically talked into the AOW class because of the "deal" they were offering. Personally, I don't feel like someone who should be carrying an AOW card.
On the flip side, my OW class and instructor were excellent. He left my wife and I with the confidence that we were prepared to dive safely with no impact on the environment. His emphasis on important skills like bouyancy and reef conservation made us better than most divers on our first trip out.
On the matter of photography I'll differ with a few on here. I have taken a camera along since being certified. At first, it was simple point and shoot style film, then digital. Nonetheless, I think it enhanced my experience and fed my enthusiasm to learn more about diving. That insatiable hunger led me here to learn even more. Furthermore, this has led to an increased awareness of reef conservation. The through the lens image of reef wonders and macro life make you conscious of little guys living in small places. My appreciation for photography made me go the extra mile to practice bouyancy in the pool and in my local lake just so I'm prepared when I'm in the big blue. I have to confess that some of this is based on a selfish desire to be able to compose that shot underwater. In the end, I'm not sure I'd be as good a diver as I am today if not for carrying the camera/passion with me.
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#35 Elli and Ted

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 07:57 AM

I find it a bit strange that almost everybody here seems to think that qualifications are a waste of time, so why did you qualify at all, some all the way to instructor.


:blink: Ted

#36 Paul Kay

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:03 AM

Quote " so why did you qualify at all"?

1. Legal requirements
2. Insurance requirements
3. To convince dive operators of the above

!!!
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#37 Giles

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:42 AM

Having met 'instructors' with only a hundred dives who had never been to more than 35m I long ago lost confidence in outright qualifications (other than DIR - Sorry Mike).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's a shame when divers judge other divers by how deep they have been, it's like unzipping your pants to compare eel sizes. I barely ever tell anyone how deep I have been, it's like killing someone .. if you've done it you don't talk about it.

I find it a bit strange that almost everybody here seems to think that qualifications are a waste of time, so why  did you qualify at all, some all the way to instructor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have No idea why I got certified now .. all the way to instructor, I never taught anyone .. but It was a way for me to get a job here in the Cayman Islands back when I was 18.

Quote " so why did you qualify at all"?

1. Legal requirements
2. Insurance requirements
3. To convince dive operators of the above

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Number 3 I agree with .. but you don't need any of the others .. or a dive certification to go diving .. you just need the guts to go out and buy your own equipment ... if you have a way of filling the tank then you are good to go.
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#38 fdog

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:44 AM

<snip> so why  did you qualify at all, <snip>

A. (at the time) to feed myself
B. To get dive ops to allow me to do what I want

About ( B ) above: I believe there are way too many useless "certifications" that are available on the menu. So, I don't bother with them. However, if the prevailing attitude changes (those darn lawyers again) I'll pick up the cert.

For example, I am a scooter driver. This goes with me on boat dives and shore dives, deep and recreational. I do not have a scooter c-card, this isn't rocket surgery! Still, if it ever becomes a prevailing attitude that one is incapable of piloting a scooter without a card, I'll get one.

All the best, James

#39 chewie70

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 09:05 AM

I don't think certs really mean much. I've known some pretty big morons that were master divers. It's all about how often and consistantly you dive. My certs consist of Padi, Naui and commercial hard hat (air, mixed gas and saturation for 10 years). With all of that behind me, I still consider myself pretty green right now due to the fact that I have not dove consistantly for the past 2 years.

BTW, does anybody know where that valve thingy you turn to get your air is located :blink:

#40 loftus

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 09:07 AM

I found a cavern course to be helpful in practicing buoyancy skills while multitasking with tying lines etc
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