
Is it art or is it reality?
#21
Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:06 AM
This is supposed to be about emotion!!
(yes yes yes, ok, going home now..)
Join us for an Underwater Photography Workshop in the Lembeh Strait at NAD Lembeh with Doug Sloss in 2018
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#22
Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:07 AM
BEFORE

and
AFTER

great example from Saeed of the power of photoshop .. amazing differences.
#23
Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:15 AM
Being that I am trimming back my java consumption, I was weary eyed and still scratching myself at 6 a.m. Nonetheless, what I meant was oversaturation, creating an image on LSD as opposed to naturally occurring colors that we see as divers. I am not against adjusting saturation at all, just overcooking the pic to have them look like you shot it at the skittles factory.
Joe
Author, Catalina Island - All you Need to Know
www.californiaunderwater.com
www.visitingcatalina.com
#24
Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:56 AM
The whole discussion about digital is moot. Digital is here, it's here to stay, and it has mostly replaced slides and film. End of discussion. You can have romantic dreams about how things used to be, and how that was art, but thats pointless. It's another form of art, but no better or worse. It was just different.
I think you can clean up your images and sell them to whomever wants them, if it fits their submission rules. If they say they want unaltered images, then dont submit altered images. When in doubt, ask.
Yes, this totally changes (no, has totally changed is more like it) the playing field of underwater imaging. No longer do you need to have in-camera perfection to be able to sell and make money on this line of work. Yes, this means it is no longer a line of work where only the top 50 make any kind of money (not necessarily a profit though) Im sure that sucks if you're in that top 50. But this is not new, and not limited to photography. In any field where technology has handed tools to make things easier, the old-style artisans have lost their foothold.
Personally, I really respect the artisans that have evolved with the times and are using their knowledge, style and maybe fame to keep their top position in this changed field. I think that is a more positive attitude, and a realistic attitude, than calling everyone with a digital camera a cheater.
Cor
website | tripreports/journal | facebook | wetpixel map | twitter
#25
Posted 07 September 2006 - 07:04 AM
Alex raises an interesting point though, which is the time taken to adjust and make some images viable - it can take hours! Consider this though. I shoot in temperate conditions where the weather is a constant factor affecting visibility and light levels. Its also substantially seasonal. It can be very effective to adjust an image rather than have to find a saeson/weather window in which to reshoot.
Also think that manipulation of a subject takes many forms, some of which are of extreme dubiousness to even the least ethically minded person. Is a film shot image of a restrained or narcotised creature better or worse than a digitally manipulated one?
Paul Kay,Canon EOS5DII SEACAM c/w S45, 8-15, 24L,35L, 60/2.8 (+Ext12II) & 100/2.8 Macros - Sony A7II SEACAM 28/2 & 50/2.8 Macro - UK/Ireland Seacam Sales -see marinewildlife
#26
Posted 07 September 2006 - 10:39 AM
Will you complain if you go somewhere that you were led to believe had gin-clear conditions from the pictures you saw in magazines only to find you were sold a Photoshop idea or how gin-clear it could be?
I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?
#27
Posted 07 September 2006 - 12:00 PM
I thought that this was called advertising???
Paul Kay,Canon EOS5DII SEACAM c/w S45, 8-15, 24L,35L, 60/2.8 (+Ext12II) & 100/2.8 Macros - Sony A7II SEACAM 28/2 & 50/2.8 Macro - UK/Ireland Seacam Sales -see marinewildlife
#28
Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:22 PM
It is called advertising .. however .. in this day an age of internet .. we expect to have information at our finger tips and we expect it to be truthfull ... of course different cultures like information differentl .. some not naming any northern american countries at all .. like to be over sensationalised for shock factor or perhaps just hide the truth all together .. or perhaps fabricate something the masses will like. (it's interesting living with different TV than I grew up with)I thought that this was called advertising???
The internet as it has done with finding prices on goods has let us look around more and find our own views that we each prefer ..
so with that in mind .. i dont know what my answer would be as to what sort of images I would rather see .. I guess it depends on the circumstances.
#29
Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:36 PM
Author, Catalina Island - All you Need to Know
www.californiaunderwater.com
www.visitingcatalina.com
#30
Posted 07 September 2006 - 01:44 PM
Now editorial content, which in Europe has always had what we call integrity, is now vulnerable to highly retouched submissions from Jo Public that editors like because they look nice but do not reflect what a place is like when you get there. Surely, it's as bad as illustrating a piece on Turkey with shots taken in the Red Sea - isn't it?.
I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?
#31
Posted 07 September 2006 - 02:38 PM
Being slightly more serious - i think that extreme lenses such as fisheyes and super-dooper macro lenses do not show the marine environment in a representative way - and could certainly be considered more misleading about what someone could expect to see in an area, than cleaning backscatter out of a picture or cloning out an errant fish.
And I think that there is a wider issue of why people read diving magazines in the first place. Often it is not just for information, but also to be entertained. I will always read John's reviews on kit, even if it is kit I would never own for my type of diving - because I enjoy reading his opinions.
Alex
Alexander Mustard - www.amustard.com - www.magic-filters.com
Nikon D5 (Subal housing). Nikon D7200 (Subal housing). Olympus EPL-5 (Nauticam housing).
#32
Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:29 PM
To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted.
This issue goes to the heart of a lot of "ty's - integrity, ability and our credibility, creativity.
I get annoyed when the word manipulate is seen in some way as derogitory or demeaning. I think the trouble stems from the fact that it seems to be used an easy alternative to "composite" or "combine" or "edit".
You manipulate all kinds of things to make a photograph - hey that's what we do- we manipulate light, perspective, zones of sharpness, exposure, tone (before digital by film choice, or in the darkroom), reflectivity (polarising filters)... there are many, many more, but you've got the point.
And I agree the great photographers (the Ansel Adams example) have always been the best manipulators.
A statement like No sir, I no longer manipulate anything to make my images. would mean you are longer a photographer, but merely a picture snapper, like all those folks with mobile phone cameras.
But here-in lies a fundamental premise...
I think there needs to be a HUGE distinction between manipulating tone, colour, localised tone/contrast and saturation etc of a capture versus adding, subtracting or moving content to make a new scene that did not exist in the capture.
Those of us that have been around the photo industry for a long time have seen it all before. I have NO PROBLEM per se with composite images, and feel they can be the best way to portray a subject, and I use those techniques myself in some of my commercial work, as they can at times do a job that one-capture-photographs can not do. We'd all find it difficult not to use the tools that our competitors use.
However I do think we have a responsibility to the viewer, to help them know what is true and what is not. We can never expect to see digital composites labelled as such, but if we want our unmanipulated images to be appreciated for what they are, we should start making a point of it, and being pro-active in labelling them as such.
In the long run, the "market place" (ie the final consumers of the images) will make its own decision about our credibility, as image makers. Anyone who has put their work in front of the public regularly knows that the craft is becoming less well respected as time passes (but I am sure this has always been the case as things have gotten easier - think the introduction of glass plates, gelatin film bases, rolls of film, cameras you can carry one handed, light meters, light meters built into cameras, auto exposure, auto focus, zooms, scanning, image stabilisers, digital capture).
It would be nice to be held in more regard than used car salesman, lawyers and real estate agents, and politicians (who are always manipulating stuff).
darren
Edited by photovan, 07 September 2006 - 06:35 PM.
Darren Jew | Australia | darrenjew.com | fotofrenzy.com.au
Canon EOS1Dx | EOSM | Nauticam | Inon Z240
#33
Posted 07 September 2006 - 09:08 PM
I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?
#34
Posted 07 September 2006 - 10:24 PM

#35
Posted 07 September 2006 - 10:27 PM
I buy my own photographic kit. Diving equipment manufacturers and diving services suppliers get even-handed treatment from me whether they choose to advertise in the publications I write for or not. All the equipment I get on loan is returned as soon as it is finished with. Did you know you can now get Diver Mag as an iPad/Android app?
#36
Posted 07 September 2006 - 10:31 PM
i think you looked better in your old avatar...
Join us for an Underwater Photography Workshop in the Lembeh Strait at NAD Lembeh with Doug Sloss in 2018
Blog and Photo Archive/Portfolio Site www.mikeveitchblog.com
Learn underwater photography in the ultimate classroom, Bali! or join us on a trip www.underwatertribe.com and www.baliuwphoto.com
Join us for a trip in Indonesia in Komodo or Raja Ampat
#37
Posted 08 September 2006 - 01:08 AM
So how many magazine editors do you know who would publish a photo of Snowdon (highest mountain in (North) Wales fo anyone not famiar) in the drizzle John? Except to make a specific point, I would guess that the answer is very, very few. Most editors will choose a nice sunny view with blue skies despite drizzle possibly being a mite more common. So are editors manipulating the image of North Wales simply by making a choice - you bet! Advertising and editorial are to a degree inseperable.
And as Alex points out choice of lens has an enormous effect too.
There was never a less true statement than'the camera never lies'!
But attempting to represent a subject 'truthfully' has a wide variety of meanings and is dependent on its audience as well as its creator. And I suspect a lot of wetpixelers migt be a tad disappointed at meeting you in the flesh after that intriguing 'photoshopped' self-portrait..........
As for whether its art - the audience is the beholder!
Paul Kay,Canon EOS5DII SEACAM c/w S45, 8-15, 24L,35L, 60/2.8 (+Ext12II) & 100/2.8 Macros - Sony A7II SEACAM 28/2 & 50/2.8 Macro - UK/Ireland Seacam Sales -see marinewildlife
#38
Posted 08 September 2006 - 01:19 AM

Join us for an Underwater Photography Workshop in the Lembeh Strait at NAD Lembeh with Doug Sloss in 2018
Blog and Photo Archive/Portfolio Site www.mikeveitchblog.com
Learn underwater photography in the ultimate classroom, Bali! or join us on a trip www.underwatertribe.com and www.baliuwphoto.com
Join us for a trip in Indonesia in Komodo or Raja Ampat
#39
Posted 08 September 2006 - 01:21 AM
Paul Kay,Canon EOS5DII SEACAM c/w S45, 8-15, 24L,35L, 60/2.8 (+Ext12II) & 100/2.8 Macros - Sony A7II SEACAM 28/2 & 50/2.8 Macro - UK/Ireland Seacam Sales -see marinewildlife
#40
Posted 08 September 2006 - 01:34 AM
Join us for an Underwater Photography Workshop in the Lembeh Strait at NAD Lembeh with Doug Sloss in 2018
Blog and Photo Archive/Portfolio Site www.mikeveitchblog.com
Learn underwater photography in the ultimate classroom, Bali! or join us on a trip www.underwatertribe.com and www.baliuwphoto.com
Join us for a trip in Indonesia in Komodo or Raja Ampat