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#1 skawdiver

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 11:44 PM

In an upcomming project, which will be delivered in DVCam resolution, I need an extra camera, and I might use the opportunity to buy a new HDV cam.

But I will have to combine that footage with the footage from my PD170.

The question is. Will I be able to film with a HDV cam, and combine this footage with the PD170 footage, to output the entire project in standard DVCam fullscreen resoultion (not 16:9) ?

Looking foreward to your answers.
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#2 NickJ

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 12:09 AM

Don't think this should be an issue - certainly not in FCP, but you'd have to crop your 16:9 HDV stuff down to 4:3 and loose the left and right edges in the process. You'd need to do a final edit sequence in some common codec (eg DVC Pro) and then export the whole thing to an SD DVD mpeg. Only other issue would be if one cam is in PAL and other is in NTSC, but if both are shooting the same, it should be fine (otherwise there are additional steps - although still possible).

You could also letterbox your 16:9 material if you didn't want to crop, but then mixing 16:9 letterbox with 4:3 looks a little weird IMHO unless you are doing a lot of fancy framing edits etc

Edited by NickJ, 28 September 2006 - 12:25 AM.

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#3 MikeVeitch

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 01:14 AM

which camera are you considering?

the Z1 can do native 4:3 DVCAM in either PAL or NTSC...

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#4 skawdiver

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 01:57 AM

Thanks for the feed-back !

which camera are you considering?


The Z1 or FX1E or the HVR-V1 if housings will be available januar 2007.

the Z1 can do native 4:3 DVCAM in either PAL or NTSC...


I have problems with the english language here "Native" does that mean standard fullscreen 720x576 DVcam pal output ?

Is that a function, that one have to choose on the camera, prior to filming ?

Edited by skawdiver, 28 September 2006 - 02:01 AM.

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#5 MikeVeitch

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 04:29 AM

yes, you choose dvcam ahead of time and film with that. your choice of either 720x576 or 720x480, or should i say 25 fps or 30fps

when i say Native i mean that is actually the way you film it, no need for conversion or cropping or whatever..

its what you actually record onto the tape. the monitor is actually 16:9 but when you choose dvcam you get the ends shadowed out to compose with 4:3 (what you call full screen)

In short, you can do what you are looking to do with the Z1 but not with any other camera, including the FX1

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#6 wagsy

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 04:48 AM

If you are using Premiere Pro and you drop a 16.9 DV clip into a 4.3 DV timeline, it will crop the 16.9 automatic. That is it cut the ends off.
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#7 skawdiver

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 04:53 AM

Mike

Perfect help - thanks alot.
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#8 Drew

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 05:00 AM

Cropping loses resolution. If you are delivering in DVCAM, the resolution loss will show. What I suggest is shoot 5:4 DV PAL for A & B camera for maximum compatibility. I would also suggest you test color saturation and sharpness test footage to match output on both cameras to minimize post.

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#9 MikeVeitch

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 05:16 AM

Wags... no need to do that with the Z... it will shoot 4:3 DVCAM, the FX does not. As drew mentions, you want to keep full resolution

if that is what the project is for, why shoot 16:9? No need to crop....


We will just assume Drew meant 4:3 not 5:4 and that he has fat fingers. :)

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#10 Drew

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 05:49 AM

Actually Mike no. PAL DV is 5:4(720x576). NTSC DV is 4:3(720x480). Skaw is from Denmark so he works in PAL. My fingers aren't fat, but yours are a bit too quick on the draw.

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#11 MikeVeitch

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:26 PM

Damn.....


but that makes sense.... :)

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#12 wagsy

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 04:45 PM

Yeh but then a year later someone contacts him for some footage in 16.9 but he only has it in 4.3...I would shoot 16.9 and crop...but that's me.

You know that only thing I could ever work out with DVCAM is it spins the tape faster so you only get 40 mins on a tape and sony could sell you a very $$ tape. It has a slight wider tape pitch or something. Don't worry I still got drops out with those $45 dvcam tapes.
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#13 Drew

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 05:09 PM

Well to help you feel you're right PAL is officially 768x576, which is 4:3. Don't say I'm not nice... sometimes. :)

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#14 skawdiver

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 01:12 AM

Yeh but then a year later someone contacts him for some footage in 16.9 but he only has it in 4.3...I would shoot 16.9 and crop...but that's me.


Okey Wags, you got my attention, if I understand this right, you would film in HDV, make a crop in editing, and then render as SDV, so that the material would mix with my other SDV stuff ?

Edited by skawdiver, 30 September 2006 - 01:13 AM.

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#15 Drew

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 01:44 AM

Skaw, I think I got lost in the loop here. You have a project for delivery in DVCAM. You have a PD170 now and you want a B cam (or new A cam) that'll mix well with the DV from the PD170? And you have to deliver in PAL DV 5:4?
I think Wags is suggesting that you shoot in 16:9 mode in DV and then crop to 5:4 PAL so later you'd have a 16:9 tape as stock. Which is one way to go. I suggest you test some clips to see if the loss of resolution(which results in softening) is acceptable to you.
Another alternative (which Wags may also be suggesting) is to shoot all in 16:9 with your new HDV camera in HDV, downconvert to DV to match the PD170, leaving you with stock HDV tape. You can set the view finder to show the 4:3 marks onscreen or in the VF so you can frame for 4:3.
I would experiment a bit with the custom settings to image match whichever camera you buy.
The V1E is going to be released in Dec so I doubt housings will be ready by Jan but you'll know more by Nov at DEMA.

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#16 wagsy

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 01:53 AM

Yep...Shoot in HDV downcovert to DV 16.9 as it comes out of the camera, crop and mix with ya 4.3. Then you always have your original in HDV. I certainly would not of sold my FX1 material this year if I shot in DV 16.9.

Interesting here I am editing HDV (Canopus HQ 1440/1080) and DV 16.9 and raw HDV m2t files right on the same timeline in real time with Edius....although I would not be able to output it all to a HD file it would look fine if going out to normal DVD specs.
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#17 skawdiver

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 02:09 AM

Skaw, I think I got lost in the loop here. You have a project for delivery in DVCAM. You have a PD170 now and you want a B cam (or new A cam) that'll mix well with the DV from the PD170? And you have to deliver in PAL DV 5:4?

Yes

I think Wags is suggesting that you shoot in 16:9 mode in DV and then crop to 5:4 PAL so later you'd have a 16:9 tape as stock. Which is one way to go. I suggest you test some clips to see if the loss of resolution(which results in softening) is acceptable to you.

If I understand it right, this will give me a lot of resoultion loss in the cropped files ?

Another alternative (which Wags may also be suggesting) is to shoot all in 16:9 with your new HDV camera in HDV, downconvert to DV anamorphic to match the PD170, leaving you with stock HDV tape. You can set the view finder to show the 4:3 marks onscreen or in the VF so you can frame for 4:3.


Would'nt that be the best way to do it, giving the best quality ?

"Leaving you with stock HDV tape" - would be nice :P

Yep...Shoot in HDV downcovert to DV 16.9 as it comes out of the camera, crop and mix with ya 4.3.


Okey, I was hoping, that it would be possible to shoot in HDV, import in NLE as HDV, crop to 4:3, and then render as SDV. To me that sounds like the best way to avoid resoultion loss, but perhaps it's not possible ?

If I downconvert to DV 16:9, and the crop, there will be a some resoultion loss.

Unless - I am misunderstanding the whole thing :)


Wags.

Could I ask you to provide me with a 5 sek. out of the camera HDV PAL clip for download ?

I don't even know what filesize it will be, but hopefully not too large....

It does not have to be anything special, just with some sharp details, nothing spectacular.

I will then "play" with this clip in Vegas7, and try and mix it with my SDV, to see what results I can expect.

What say you ?
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#18 wagsy

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 03:05 AM

Sure can...I'll render you out a m2t file and load it up...stay tuned...

I'll load up the same clip in normal DV 16.9 as well.
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#19 wagsy

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 04:32 AM

Skaw
Here ya go

I have two clips for you to play with.
One is a 50i 1440/1080 m2t file and the other is a DV 16.9 pal file of the same clip.

www.hdvunderwater.com/test.m2t 36 megs
www.hdvunderwater.com/test.avi 40 megs

Lets us know how ya go. :)
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#20 skawdiver

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 07:22 AM

Got the 2 clips, thanks alot.

It might take a day, or 2 before I will be able to give som feed back on my progress.
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