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#21 skawdiver

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 12:41 AM

Thanks again Wags.

After "playing" with the clips, I learned exactly what I needed.

There is aboslutely no problem in combining the 2 formats. And it can be done in 2 ways.

Test 1:
Load the HDV clip into Vegas7, and crop on timeline to 4:3, and then render to SDV. This procedure cuts the 2 sides of the HDV, and offcause one needs to be aware of this when filming.
Sample one

Test 2:
Convert the HDV to SDV 16:9, and then load the SDV 16:9 into timeline and combine with SDV 4:3, make "fake frames" to letterbox the whole thing, and then render as SDV 4:3. This procedure cuts the top and bottom of the original SDV 4:3, and offcause one needs to be aware of this when filming.
Sample two

Maybe this post shouldt be moved to Editing, Post Production, and Sharing ?

Edited by skawdiver, 01 October 2006 - 04:05 AM.

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#22 Drew

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 12:47 AM

Skaw
If you are getting the Sony, you can get the camera to down convert for you into DV. It'll pump out straight 5:4 or 16:9. Also there are onscreen markings for 4:3 you can apply in the display to frame. In my tests of downconverted vs software converted, the quality of the camera converted was INsignificantly better in resolution and you skip a step in rendering.
Good luck

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#23 skawdiver

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 01:05 AM

Also there are onscreen markings for 4:3 you can apply in the display to frame.

That's a nice feature !

I will decide in the next couple of months.

Damn, you guys are just great, when shall we arrange a meeting somewhere in the world ? :)

:P
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#24 wagsy

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 01:22 AM

Hey so there you go...now which HDV camera are you going to get??
Yes it is cool that we can help each other out like this over the internet.

What was your business you sold HCA?

That US company I sold a heap of HD wmv clips to for their trade shows across the US still have only solely used the internet to do the deal. Still have not spoken to anyone on the phone, all by email and loaded the clips to straigth to their server...funny ...times are changing.
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#25 skawdiver

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 02:07 AM

Hey so there you go...now which HDV camera are you going to get??

Don't know yet, will decide in the month that follows. But I'am a Sony guy, so it will be either FX1 or the Z1 or the HVR-V1. And then I'm an Amphibico guy, so it will be a Phenom or what ever they come up with for the HVR-V1

What was your business you sold HCA?

Where have you read about that ? - can't remember writing that anywhere in english......

Anyway - I have owned one of Denmarks largest Hostel's. Manager for 15 years, the last 7 years as solely owner. So you just have to mention the word "tourist" and I go bonaza :P - :) - :lol:

On the other hand, say: diving and filming........ :lol: - :lol: - :lol: - :lol:

Edited by skawdiver, 02 November 2006 - 01:28 AM.

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#26 MikeVeitch

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 03:30 AM

how about we mention Danish girls?!?!?

:)

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#27 Drew

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Posted 01 October 2006 - 05:12 AM

That's a nice feature !
Damn, you guys are just great, when shall we arrange a meeting somewhere in the world ? :)


Well, it'll have to be somewhere MUCH warmer than 40°F water. I'm so over the North Sea.
If you need your equipment by Jan, the V1 is probably not going to happen for you. Incredibly, the FX1E is going for under $3000 in the US right now. It's even cheaper than the NTSC version!

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#28 Jolly

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:59 AM

Actually Mike no. PAL DV is 5:4(720x576). NTSC DV is 4:3(720x480). Skaw is from Denmark so he works in PAL. My fingers aren't fat, but yours are a bit too quick on the draw.


Well to help you feel you're right PAL is officially 768x576, which is 4:3. Don't say I'm not nice... sometimes. :)


PAL TV is 4:3 with 768x576. That is (or better was) also the case for capturing PAL signal. Like with those old FAST AV Master, etc. PAL DV standard just compresses horizontal resolution from 768 to 720 pixels. Meaning no square pixels for recording DV PAL onto DV tape. For playback, horizontal pixels are stretched again to 768 displaying 4:3 (768x576) on the screen.

I understood the same is the case with 1080i camcorders? They maintain 1080 vertical lines but compress 1920 horizontal resolution to somewhat 1440 or even less (DVCPRO HD 1280?) pixels onto HDV tape, right? Or am I wrong?

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#29 wagsy

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 03:15 AM

1920/1080 = 1 aspect ratio
1440/1080 = 1.333 aspect ratio....HDV
1280/720 = 1 aspect ratio

4.3 PAL = 720/576 = 1.067 aspect ratio
16.9 PAL = 720/576 = 1.422 aspect ratio
4.3 NTSC = 720/480 = 0.9 aspect ratio
16.9 NTSC = 720/480 = 1.200 aspect ratio

Read about it on your website there HCA
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#30 Drew

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 04:30 AM

Julian, PAL TV at 768x576 is the square pixel 4:3. However, PAL DV is non-square and hence 5:4. The ITU.R BT601 standard for PAL DV encodes in non-square mode. Hence to edit, you still have to use non-square pixels. However, modern NLEs can view the PAL DV as square pixels. That's the gyst of it.
As for DVC Pro HD (DVC100), 1080i is downconverted to 1280x1080(60i) and 1440x1080(50i). HDV 1080i is downconverted to 1440x1080 BUT 720P is full 1280x720.

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#31 Jolly

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 05:18 AM

Well, that's what I said, PAL 4:3 (768x576 signal on the TV screen) but DV signal is downscaled horizontally to 720 with non square pixels. From my understanding, 4:3 refers to the the final TV image which is displayed in PAL (always 4:3). I've never seen 5:4 PAL TV images, but I am sure they would look funny :)

Different thing to that is the resulting pixel aspect ratio as wagsy said, but still TV image of 4:3 aspect ratio:
4.3 PAL = 720/576 = 1.067 aspect ratio

Maybe it has been said here before, but do you guys know what the Sony HC3 records horizontally on the chip before compressing? Is it 1920 or does the sensor physically have non square pixels?

Thank you.

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#32 Drew

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 07:02 AM

Julian, 768x576 is 4:3, assuming the pixels are square. So semantically, 4:3 is the correct ratio for square pixels, but since editing on computers is what we were talking about, 5:4 is the working aspect ratio.
I think the BBC explains it better than I ever will:
BBC White paper

If I remember correctly, the HDR-HC3 uses a 960x1080 CMOS sensor which is uprated to 1440x1080 for HDV.

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#33 DeanB

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 07:54 AM

MUMMY :) :(





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#34 Jolly

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 07:59 AM

I think there is nothing to discuss about how pixels are horizontally compressed onto Tape or whatever, but the entire image aspect ratio on TV is the same as recorded. PAL is 4:3, not 5:4. No matter if it is a 768x576 PAL video with square pixels (for example MJPEG Capture cards) or non-square pixels like PAL on DV because the original image aspect ratio is maintained during playback.

Julian, 768x576 is 4:3, assuming the pixels are square. So semantically, 4:3 is the correct ratio for square pixels, but since editing on computers is what we were talking about, 5:4 is the working aspect ratio.


Surprising to me, what software do you use? For editing PAL stuff, I use some realtime preview monitor sitting next to the PC for a friendly preview. Moreover, my DV edit software always displays 720x576 non-square pixel DV content with the correct 4:3 image aspect ratio. That means Liquid displays the 720x576 PAL DV content with 768x576 square pixels on the PC monitor for proper image aspect ratio. You calculated the aspect ratio 5:4 as if the pixels would be square ones (720x768 square pixels would result in 5:4). But as you agree, they are not, that’s why PAL is still 4:3.

Well, I am not familiar with many pieces editing software. I would have assumed that they display PAL in the correct way (4:3) like Liquid does. I would not prefer to cut a 4:3 video displayed as 5:4.

If I remember correctly, the HDR-HC3 uses a 960x1080 CMOS sensor which is uprated to 1440x1080 for HDV.


Thanks. Well, I just start to have a look at HDV cams (just some consumer one for me). But I better do not spam this topic :-)

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#35 Drew

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 08:23 AM

Julian, like I was saying, it's all semantics, especially in effect 4:3 from a D1/PAL DV signal displayed on a TV is actually 702x576 or 1.094 aspect ratio, non-square, effectively the 4:3 pic is inside the 720x576 image. So when editors sometimes use D1 PAL, they use 5:4 to indicate 720x576 D1. Otherwise, we'd get 788x576 as actual pixels because 768x576 would not show true 4:3 square pixels. They just don't count the extra 20 pixels in the aspect ratio calculation, but effectively it has to be included.

As for consumer cameras, the FX1 and 7 are consider consumer too. :)

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