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#21 tshepherd

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Posted 17 February 2003 - 05:13 PM

Good advice in general, not just for Cozumel. It's amazing how inconsistent the labelled contents are with what's actually in there...

#22 Cybergoldfish

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Posted 17 February 2003 - 05:17 PM

Trimix works well as it has a reduction of both oxygen and Nitrogen by adding helium - This just makes you talk funny on coms... Enriched air is used for stops, but travel gas is often required too - Way too complicated if you need to take a camera, maybe!!!

I don't think the FAA would favour too many pilots getting qualified in just 4 days eh, but times change.

#23 james

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Posted 17 February 2003 - 05:36 PM

That story is by Richard Pyle - a known "deepwater fish collector" otherwise known as whacko, total freaking nutcase. Where do you Centropyge narcosis got its name?

At the Flowergardens you're nuts if you don't dive Nitrox. Five 70' dives in one day.

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#24 Cybergoldfish

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Posted 17 February 2003 - 05:50 PM

That story is by Richard Pyle - a known "deepwater fish collector" otherwise known as whacko, total freaking nutcase. Where do you Centropyge narcosis got its name?


Hence my earlier quote about a related diving disorder!!! His IQ is measured in meters not feet.



At the Flowergardens you're nuts if you don't dive Nitrox. Five 70' dives in one day.


Of course that makes pefect sense.

#25 craig

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Posted 17 February 2003 - 06:56 PM

DAN's annual report reported an injury rate of about 9 per 10000 partiicpants (don't quote me on the exact number) - 10 fold lower than soccer.  Even safer than bowling.  With that kind of safety record I find it difficult to accept that the training is insufficient.  I agree that there is a great deal more to learn after an OW cert, but the same can be said for a new driver, pilot, etc.  Some responsibility must fall on the student to develop his skills and abilities.

DAN's annual report doesn't say anything about PADI's safety record nor does it include incidents that go unreported. My DCS incident is certainly not a DAN statistic. For all we know, every diving injury is PADI-related.

In order to make the statement you did you'd need data on PADI as well as comparable data on "virtually every other sport". In addition, I doubt any bowling injuries result in loss of life, so it's bogus to suggest that PADI's safety record is "even safer than bowling". Not diving at all results in a superior safety record. Would you attribute that to PADI's quaity training, too?
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#26 Kasey

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 03:05 AM

DAN's annual report doesn't say anything about PADI's safety record nor does it include incidents that go unreported.

Non-reporting of injuries applies to any such study. My guess would be that at least as many bowling injuries go unreported as do with SCUBA. So, are you suggesting that diving is NOT remarkably safe? Would you say that PADI's safety record is not exemplary? How many people have you (personally) seen injured or killed? After 500 dives I've seen a handful of fire coral stings, and I know of 2 local DCS and a couple fatalities in the last 3 years. In comparison to my football/soccer/cycling experience - this is the safest sport (activity really) I've ever participated in. I think you'd be in a very small minority to argue that SCUBA hasn't become much safer under PADI's generalship. By bringing SCUBA to the masses, responsibly, the organization has benefited us all. More divers means better equipment development, and equipment has certainly come a long way.

PADI's classes are taught at a 12yr old level. Of course as you examine it you'll feel that a great deal is left out. The critical information has been greatly simplified out of necessity. However, remember that these divers are only "certified" to dive to sixty feet on conservative tables. Bob, of the deaths that you have witnessed, how many of them followed those basic guidelines set forth by PADI - Never dive alone; never hold your breath; limit of 60ft; dive within your zone of comfort and experience with equipment in good condition. Now exclude those that had cardiac arrests or other incidents while underwater. How many would be left?

No longer is it required that we put our equipment on while falling to the bottom of the ocean. No longer do we exclude all but the most fit individuals. Yet the safety of the sport has steadily improved based on stats from DAN.

Making the open water class more comprehensive would do one of two things - exclude people that could safely dive within PADI's envelope; or certify people with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. You suggest telling people under what circumstances you can hold your breath?!?! On your first un-guided dive, beginning you ascent from 30 ft.... might be the worst time to get confused. Never hold your breath is enough information to keep the ignorant safe.

Perpetuating the belief that SCUBA is an extreme activity just keeps my insurance higher, and my friends and family from enjoying the sport.

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#27 craig

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 07:46 AM


DAN's annual report doesn't say anything about PADI's safety record nor does it include incidents that go unreported.

Non-reporting of injuries applies to any such study. My guess would be that at least as many bowling injuries go unreported as do with SCUBA. So, are you suggesting that diving is NOT remarkably safe? Would you say that PADI's safety record is not exemplary? How many people have you (personally) seen injured or killed? After 500 dives I've seen a handful of fire coral stings, and I know of 2 local DCS and a couple fatalities in the last 3 years. In comparison to my football/soccer/cycling experience - this is the safest sport (activity really) I've ever participated in. I think you'd be in a very small minority to argue that SCUBA hasn't become much safer under PADI's generalship. By bringing SCUBA to the masses, responsibly, the organization has benefited us all. More divers means better equipment development, and equipment has certainly come a long way.

PADI's classes are taught at a 12yr old level. Of course as you examine it you'll feel that a great deal is left out. The critical information has been greatly simplified out of necessity. However, remember that these divers are only "certified" to dive to sixty feet on conservative tables. Bob, of the deaths that you have witnessed, how many of them followed those basic guidelines set forth by PADI - Never dive alone; never hold your breath; limit of 60ft; dive within your zone of comfort and experience with equipment in good condition. Now exclude those that had cardiac arrests or other incidents while underwater. How many would be left?

No longer is it required that we put our equipment on while falling to the bottom of the ocean. No longer do we exclude all but the most fit individuals. Yet the safety of the sport has steadily improved based on stats from DAN.

Making the open water class more comprehensive would do one of two things - exclude people that could safely dive within PADI's envelope; or certify people with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. You suggest telling people under what circumstances you can hold your breath?!?! On your first un-guided dive, beginning you ascent from 30 ft.... might be the worst time to get confused. Never hold your breath is enough information to keep the ignorant safe.

Perpetuating the belief that SCUBA is an extreme activity just keeps my insurance higher, and my friends and family from enjoying the sport.

Kasey

Here you go again. It appears your position is that bowling is more hazardous than scuba diving. How many deaths are attributed to bowling? I personally know of no deaths attributed to recreational bowling, football, soccer, or cycling. I have been witness personally to multiple DCS incidents; one mine, one severe, and all were diving within computer limits. My case as well as the severe one were done during training and on tables, not computers.

I am saying that scuba diving is a potentially dangerous sport. Are you saying otherwise? Proper education is required for it to be done safely.

Scuba diving is not under "PADI's generalship" so any improvements in scuba safety cannot be simply attributed to them. "The safety of the sport has steadily improved based on stats from DAN" is another preposterous, misleading statement. You now claim that if not for DAN, the sports' safety would not "steadily improve"? I have no concern for DAN or PADI when I dive. My safety depends on me.

It is not PADI that is responsible for eliminating strenous qualifications or difficult entry techniques. It is not PADI who contributes to the improvements in equipment that you claim benefit us all, yet you would have us believe that we have all this by the grace of "PADI's generalship" and the "stats from DAN". I would say that safety has improved through the efforts of a great many people and organizations and that DAN and PADI would like to claim the credit.

As for certifying "people with just enough knowledge to be dangerous" you've got it completely backwards. That's what we do today because of PADI. Requiring more comprehensive education fixes that. It doesn't cause it. No, I don't endorse telling people "under what circumstances you can hold your breath" nor do I believe that holding my breath with result in Satan stealing my immortal soul. I don't endorse lying because it is convenient. I don't endorse retaking multiple choice tests (only the wrong answers) repeatedly until getting enough right to pass. I don't endorse teaching wrong information because it suits a 12 year old audience. I don't endorse the ignorant diving. You do, or at least you said so.

I don't perpetuate the belief that scuba is an extreme activity nor do I believe that it is. I think it fine that your friends and family enjoy the sport, and their safety choices are their concern, not mine. Insurance rates are based on claims and what the market will bear, so it's crappy education that you endorse that keeps rates high. I think divers who complete comprehensive training should get a break on insurance and PADI OW graduates should have to pay extra.

The original topic of discussion was that people learn to push the limits as they get away with mistakes and don't suffer consequences. I added that poor education contributes to that problem. You added that we all have PADI to thank for our sport's terrific safety record. Thanks for the insight.
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#28 james

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 08:28 AM

Ladies and gents,

This is a topic that has been discussed and will continue to be discussed ad infinitum on just about every bulletin board related to scuba diving.

I'd like to ask that we respectfully leave the discussion where it is as this is not going to be resolved in this forum and likely we have gained all of the available information that we are going to get here.

If some of you would like to continue, please start another topic with a different name - perhaps "Dive Safety Statistics" or similar.

Thanks to all,
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#29 Cybergoldfish

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 09:01 AM

I appreciate your moderation as do we all but these things had to be said to raise awareness and critique.

Misleading the masses is not educational it is dangerous - Diving is not, and never has been for everyone.

#30 Kasey

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 11:55 AM

I actually appreciate your moderation, James. Wetpixel was once a place where differing opinions were respected. Craig, I really wish you would tone down - you've attacked my opinions on 3 three different occasions on this board and on DD. It seems that any opinion that conflict with your own is "preposterous." I think that as a moderator you should embrace differing opinions. To me, that is what makes discussion interesting. I wouldn't be here if it weren't to learn and share with people of different opinions and experience.

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#31 yahsemtough

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 12:33 PM

I have to agree with some of the comments. I think too many people misinterpret what their certification really means.

I like to think of ow certs as a learners license. Yes you can drive but, you are really inexperienced and need to be limited. Also, it is a skill. A skill that if not used regularly can be partially lost thus reviews and refreshing your skills should always be done.

How it compares to other sports etc I think is like comparing apples to oranges. I don't like when it is done in most situations as they generally do not evaluate all the factors behind the statistics to provide a more accurate portrayal of the results and, a more comprehensive comparison.

I am in no way diminishing the comments of the others here only stating my thoughts.
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#32 Reefkeep

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 04:46 PM

"and on DD"

Kasey what is DD?

#33 james

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Posted 18 February 2003 - 08:45 PM

Hi Gang,

Some difference of opinion is always good. That's what these bulletin boards are all about. If we all just sat around and patted ourselves on the back, we would not grow and improve. Also keep in mind that we are discussing some "cutting edge" stuff here and are BOUND to disagree on some things.

However, I want Wetpixel to be a place where everyone feels comfortable. I would just like ask everyone to follow the "golden rule" when posting. Do unto others...

With that said, neither Mac or PC is better. PADI, NAUI, IANTD, are all good certification agencies. The Ike DS125 and Sea and Sea YS90Dx are both great strobes.

And finally, my favorite - no one camera is the best for everyone. Unless it's my camera of course...:-)

Cheers
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#34 Kasey

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Posted 19 February 2003 - 01:38 AM

DD = digitaldiver.net
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#35 Reefkeep

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Posted 19 February 2003 - 06:03 PM

OIC thanks..

#36 Cybergoldfish

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Posted 19 February 2003 - 06:42 PM

R, IC 2!

#37 Evil Bill

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Posted 19 February 2003 - 08:01 PM

Might not be a bad idea for those people posting this thread to print it, read it and check their facts and come back to it. An awful lot of misconceptions and misinformation being posted here. :unsure:

#38 scottyb

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 07:34 AM

I like this topic as long as it stays civil. I have found myself becoming more conservative with experience. It should be the other way but it's a matter of perspective. I couldn't wait to get my nitrox cert so I could increase my bottom time when I could not even stay down long enough to exceed air limits. Now, I dive nitrox when the situation calls for it like a flat profile less than 100 feet. I also dive nitrox on live-aboards but do it very conservatively. I leave my duplicate computer on air and try to stay within it's limits as well.

One of the things I don't like about the current state of certifying agencies is the level of experience required for divemasters and instructors. I have seen a PADI instructor, with fewer dives than I as a AOW diver at the time, freak out in black water. Our rescue training for the boat races involves a lot of black water training and the instructor couldn't handle it. Yet this instructor was qualified to and did in fact lead classes of new students in Lake Travis, a notoriously dangerous place, subject to extreme thermoclines and silt outs.

This brings me to another question. I have heard a few make comments about inexperience based on diving lakes or quarries. Diving a lake like Travis and many others can not prepare a diver for a lot of things he may encounter in the ocean. However it does offer valuable training under adverse conditions that a recreational diver who dives at resorts may never encounter in a life time. A 100 foot dive in Travis far exceeds the training a person would get in 20 100 foot dives in blue water.

#39 MrFish

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 12:09 PM

I am what most would call a novice diver. I learned to dive with PADI this time last year and now have about 70 odd dives.

But it really doesn't take long to spot the dangerous diver. They seem to exude an air of carelessness and seem to believe that they know better than all the experts that have created the rules and guidelines that currently exist.

During a recent dive trip around asia i would say that 20% of divers are what i would call a liability to themselves and to others. Some just don't seem to know their own limitations or if they are an experienced diver develop extreme complacency.

I am a military aircraft quality engineer by trade, and so this tends to bias me towards establishing limitations and not relying on just a single piece of equipment.

I also feel that a lot of the dive shops and schools have a lot of responsibility which they fail to live up to.
I have been on a number of dives with dive operations that either mix the abilities of people diving, fail to make adequate dive plans, use poor equipment, allow inexperienced divers to exceed their own ability and most importantly will not tell off a diver for poor or dangerous diving practices. They just seem to care too much about money or the instructors and dive masters are too scared of losing their jobs.

Every single diver must be responsible to themselves and their dive buddies for identifying their own limitations and those of their dive buddies, and if in doubt about any aspect of safety on a dive to either abort the dive or fix the problem.

As far as not getting the bends below 10m? this is not true. It is possible. This has occurred in Royal Navy divers who have been constantly yo-yo ing up and down.

I have also noticed the rather poor provisions for emergency oxygen on board dive boats, especially in Asia
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#40 Patterns

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 09:55 PM

As far as not getting the bends below 10m? this is not true. It is possible. This has occurred in Royal Navy divers who have been constantly yo-yo ing up and down.

Thanks for the correction on bends below 10m - I hadn't heard of specific exampless of the type of cases you mention, and I guess I was thinking in terms of conventinal dive profiles without considering other situations. However the DAN course on Oxygen for Diving Emergencies that I did last year left me very unwilling to "yoyo" even without having heard of specific cases where it caused problems.

BTW do you think being "a military aircraft quality engineer by trade" tends to make you conservative; or is it that a natural tendency to be conservative makes you suitable for your job?!

-David