80 replies to this topic

[MikeVeitch]

hehe Craig, nice outburst

As someone who still uses a D70, i am still not upgrading to this camera.

Although i think i need to as i am sure my agencies will want me to and i had to borrow (thankfully from a friend at no charge... ) a higher MP camera for my last major assignment!

Grrrr, i hate technology

[loftus]

You guys are correct, technology does not make the photographer, but as long as there are visible technical problems in some of our images, which are difficult or impossible for the photographer to eliminate, then some of us will have a legitimate reason to upgrade. For the type of photography I do, there are still issues with dynamic range at the high end. Underwater this is of course most obvious with sunballs etc, but it is also a problem topside with specular highlights. Digital, at least in the semi-pro camera market, has equalled or surpassed film in many ways, just not yet in this area, at least for me. For others, this technical issue may not be a concern. Some may need better high ISO noise performance, I do not.
Photographers have always fussed over the technical aspects of their photography and upgraded on an ongoing basis. It used to be with film and processing as well as the camera, now the 'film' and the camera are integrated.

[John Bantin]

So I was taking this picture for an advertising campaign. We had the location, the ramps built and the stunt driver waiting in the LandRover. We were waiting for the sun to drop to the horizon and it would be all systems go. Just at the crucial moment, the agency art-director ran into the shot because he decided he wanted to change the dressing on the LandRrover. The sun went down. I reflected that thanks to losing the moment, we would all have to come back tomorrow.
The art-director asked, "Isn’t there a button you can press?"
That’s the problem. Some problems cannot be fixed by pressing buttons - although those that market consumer goods would like us to believe they have the buttons we need!

Craig is absolutely right. But he lives in Stoke? and society there is very different to that of West Coast USA. We even live in old houses in Britain! Mines's 100 years old.

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[MikeVeitch]

You guys are correct, technology does not make the photographer,

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not saying that....

I want and need to upgrade cuz if i don't i will be left behind. As I said, I needed it for the last assignment.. For me it is simply an economic thing.

Let me rephrase my last statement..

I don't hate technology, i hate money!



Mr Bantin.. good to see you have out lived your house..

[Undertow]

WHY must we all rush out to change our cameras for the sake of 2 million pixels !! Its nothing in comparitive image dimensions.

Are you not happy with your D200 ?.

Paul Kay has the answer, I'm so fed up with this race between CANON & NIKON to produce new models every year, its crazy. Tit for Tat production, just incase one of them grabs the market.

lets have just simple Sensor and firmware upgrades for what we have. then when big leaps come along, its then worth changing.

Nothing revolutionary has happened with these new models, the old ones did just a good a job.

I'm keeping with my 200 and happy I am with it.

You can keep on throwing large amounts of cash at this hobby, would a D300 and a new housing make a magical difference in your images..

Lets not forget the art of photography eh !, its still the user that presses the shutter button and has the eye and knowledge to make the image.

ohhh, come now... everyone wants that big shiny new hunk of magnesium alloy that just glitters in your eyes and yells "buy me, buy me, BUY ME!!"

really, though, why would canon or nikon sell you a sensor upgrade when they can sell you a whole new camera! (perhaps housing manufacturers too...) They update cameras so quick becasue they CAN, because technology changes so fast now that they are constantly able to add new features and refine old ones. Its that competitive market that's hurtled digital cameras to the fantastic stage they are now at.

I highly doubt anyone here thinks a new camera will magically make thier pictures better, it is an improved tool with which we can express our artistic discourse. It depends on your photographic needs... personallly I love my D200 and will continue to use it UW.

I do, however, push that camera to its limits shooting a lot of wildlife (esp. birds) topside. Hence I will sell my backup D200 as I could really use the D300's improved AF, 8 FPS (w/ vertical grip) and 2 extra MP for cropping when shooting for a book printed at 350dpi. (we're not all photo 'hobbyists' - so alas not all money is thrown at it in vain). If aquatica then sells me a new housing back for a decent price, then YAY!

Not that I need to jusitfy myself to anyone, just explaining why some D200 owners may be so eager to upgrade.

It is true however, that the D300 doesn't seem to offer drastic improvements for UW photography. Perhaps, however, we may see improved highlight rendition, better AF, better noise control etc. If one can sell a D200 for $1200 on ebay, pick up a D300 for $1800 and a new housing back at resonable cost, its not too bad to keep up to date with the latest and greatest professional UW camera gear!

Just my own rant!! Cheers,

Chris

[Paul Kay]

"would a ..... and a new housing make a magical difference in your images.."

Ssshhh! You are not supposed to say such things!

Surely its not the model and megapixels, but being underwater and taking photos - there is still no substitute!

[craig]

It is certainly possible that a new camera and housing will make a difference in your images. It's not always a positive one though. ;-) When I changed from my first DSLR to my second and my third, there were noticable differences beyond my ability to shoot.

Many things can be improved. Sensor performance, optics (both lenses and ports), focus, exposure, flash control, speed, bouyancy, ergonomics, reliability and durability. It's all improving just not all as fast as we'd like or maybe it could be. It's up to each of us to decide whether an available upgrade is worth it to us, but anyone who says that his rig and his images are as good as they can be is either a fool or a liar. ;-) Meanwhile, it serves no one's interests for upgrades to be withheld. It's not uncommon to sit out one or more upgrade cycles. I have friends who are still delighted with the performance of their D100's (as they should be).

I'd pose the opposite question: why does anyone take a negative view of rapid progress and frequent upgrades? None of us are obligated to buy after all. How many of us upgrade our strobes each time a new one comes out?

[Paul Kay]

"Why does anyone take a negative view of rapid progress and frequent upgrades?"

Well where do I start?

Firstly, I'm convinced that many people see technology as an answer to everything and what none of it can do is replace one's own decision making process - allowing equipment to dictate how images should look is simply to go down the road where everything looks the same and it would all become very bland.

Next, is that there is often a belief that an upgrade will solve a problem which actiually merely requires a different view to produce a solution.

And then there is the assumption that more Mpixels/bit depth/whatever will actually produce a better image - it may do so but this is dependant on so many other factors that without specific input/output requirements its impossible to say. Its a bit like audiophiles - I suspect that the last thing most do is to get their hearing checked! If you want to produce A4 prints then buying the latest spec gear probably won't change them tremendously and it would require an 'educated' eye to detect marginal differences at such a size.

Rapid progress and frequent upgrades are driven by many factors, few of which are directly to do with final image 'quality' (a tricky term to define I suspect too).

And as can be seen in this thread, the idea of buying yet another housing isn't always so appealing. I'd say that underwater photographers have never had it so good. What the future holds is anyone's guess but I still reckon that today's equipment pushes people's creative abilities to the very edge already and constant redefinition of 'state of the art' equipment will probably provide only nuances of improvement.

[seagrant]

Oh Gosh this thread is taking a very complex look into something which is really quite simple actually...... :glare:

I need a land camera/backup DSLR because my camera is in the housing 98% of the time and is used frequently. First I was going to get another d200 but then the Fuji F5 came out which offered me a "different" way to go..... (which is appealing in my mind!); but the F5 turned out to be a little bit of a disappointment. Now the d300 is coming out and I haven't gotten a backup camera yet

So what are the possibilities - hmmmm if I could get the d300 as my 2nd camera and then be able to use it along with the d200 in the same housing wouldn't that be cool? I'd have redundancy along with a longer life for my housing and extra features!

Seems just a practical "wish" to me - I don't care about always getting the next thing and my photography depends a lot more on availing myself to opportunities and learning about my subjects than my equipment. But why not get the most up-to-date equipment I can? I'd do that with computer equipment too.

To me it is just being practical and smart to try to get the latest technology I can afford at the time.

But if it doesn't work out to use the d300 in the Subal ND20 housing I'll just buy another d200 body and go with it. I'm not buying another whole housing - that is too much $$$ for me.....

Anyway I really don't think this thread should be that "serious". But it is a thing that would be really cool..., to use a d200/d300 in the same housing.

Best, Carol

[craig nelson]

Hello again

thanks for not shooting me down folk... I was a little grouchy when i got up yesterday and instead of the wife getting hit with it, i thought i'd rant on the internet !

So, Yes your correct John, i do live in stoke, and i am indeed from the NORTH, so you'd need a 7/8 spanner to prise the 50 pence out of my A**e (that means for the guys over the pond, that i'm really careful where i spend my money and would rather sit on it than spend it)

The Comment re John Being older than his house made me laugh, thanks for that

john actually feels younger than he is, and this is much more important.

I'm not going to go over some of the points raised by others , but i own 2 D200 bodies, and have always had 2 of whatever i have used. it just makes sense. if i'm away on a job and the first tool breaks , i have another to complete the job with.

i also have A WIFE !...

No i certainly dont need 2 of those if you dont want to end up in a divorce, then its much better to get along with the loved one, not consistantly keep spending your earnings on what she see's is another NEW TOY

"why do you need another camera ? when the one u have already does the job" in some ways, i suppose the Wives are correct, Maybe we should encourage more women to work at NIKON & CANON...

YEH thats the answer i'm sure !

I'm ducking already as lots of flak is going to come my way

regards

craig

Just one moment... while we are on the subject of love and those cherished ones.

If your a Male, Is you camera Female or Male..... you know, we often attach a sex to our automobiles, they are always female when they are about to go wrong or run out of gas "come on girl, just get me to the gas station"

well i'm interested in what sex you put on your camera... My Primary is called "JIM" Jim is Male, he's dependable and you can take him down the pub (bar) and dont have to worry about people's opinion of seeing 2 guys drinking together. "JIM" can take his drink and can be the life and sole of the evening if you allow him too. Jim had his beverage changed so many times he wont know whats in the glass, he can take it, and still walk home without falling down after a big session, awakes in the morning ans just resets his menu and formats the card and ready for another session.

When jim and if ever jim feels sick or i need a shot while jim is sleeping in his housing i use.

CHLOE' - Now Chloe' could sell me a Renualt Clio anytime, fine lines, sleek, I just press the button and she delivers.. people adore Chloe' when the grip is attached.. she's complete "the little black dress" every man looks at her with envey and wishes they also had my Chloe'.
Her menus have not all been surfed because there is no need to just yet, I know them all from Jim because he told me about them , but i'm not going to press all the right buttons just yet, i'll save a few for later.... she's perfect not a blemish on her and two batteries to turn her on ! keeps her going for a long time.

Na , thats enough, sorry folks, just thought i'd be a little lighthearted this morning, but its interesting how at times my car is male, then its female. just wondering if your camera is the same mine

Edited by craig nelson, 09 September 2007 - 12:00 AM.

[Scuba_SI]

Hello again



Just one moment... while we are on the subject of love and those cherished ones.

If your a Male, Is you camera Female or Male..... you know, we often attach a sex to our automobiles, they are always female when they are about to go wrong or run out of gas "come on girl, just get me to the gas station"

well i'm interested in what sex you put on your camera... My Primary is called "JIM" Jim is Male, he's dependable and you can take him down the pub (bar) and dont have to worry about people's opinion of seeing 2 guys drinking together. "JIM" can take his drink and can be the life and sole of the evening if you allow him too. Jim had his beverage changed so many times he wont know whats in the glass, he can take it, and still walk home without falling down after a big session, awakes in the morning ans just resets his menu and formats the card and ready for another session.

When jim and if ever jim feels sick or i need a shot while jim is sleeping in his housing i use.

CHLOE' - Now Chloe' could sell me a Renualt Clio anytime, fine lines, sleek, I just press the button and she delivers.. people adore Chloe' when the grip is attached.. she's complete "the little black dress" every man looks at her with envey and wishes they also had my Chloe'.
Her menus have not all been surfed because there is no need to just yet, I know them all from Jim because he told me about them , but i'm not going to press all the right buttons just yet, i'll save a few for later.... she's perfect not a blemish on her and two batteries to turn her on ! keeps her going for a long time.

Na , thats enough, sorry folks, just thought i'd be a little lighthearted this morning, but its interesting how at times my car is male, then its female. just wondering if your camera is the same mine

Drugs are bad mmm'kay!

[John Bantin]

Yeah,

Let us Brits revel in it while the Californians are still safe asleep in their cots!!! (Go to bed Mike. It's late.)
On the new product page of Diver Mag each month you will see a number of pictures. Some are taken with a D2X, some with a D200, and some with an S2Pro. It all depends which one I grab hold of from my camera safe. (What? You haven't got a safe?) I challenge anyone to see the difference. The only way I can tell is to go back to the RAW files.
(Do you think I should get a housing for my new D3 when it comes?)

[loftus]

Let's put this another way. Are there ever situations where one thinks the quality of the photograph is compromised by the capability of the equipment, and /or one has difficulty creating an image that appears the way one remembers it. With my D200, I still have such situations occasionally.
The attached pic is not a great one but demonstrates what I mean. Trying different exposures, shutter speeds, etc did not help me. If there are folks who can help me avoid this problem with nothing but a camera adjustment, I am happy to hear it. Otherwise I will wait till the camera exists that can do this well, and I will buy it. BTW this is RAW right out of the camera.
I am also waiting for a he/she camera.

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Edited by loftus, 09 September 2007 - 06:15 AM.

[John Bantin]

I see what you mean!
The answer? Shoot on film!!!

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[craig nelson]

Yeah,

(Do you think I should get a housing for my new D3 when it comes?)

Yeah I think you should John ! if you keep going one day you'll be able to take better pictures , You've always told me you simply press the button and trust in Nikon.. its gota be better mate

DIVORCE or D3 & housing ? if we can afford to buy one, once the wife has taken half of all our camera equipment.

they are not stupid you know, they know just how much is sitting in that safe.. its "their" GOLD

its all good fun.

at least i cheered myself up today whilst writing these stupid things

craig

[John Bantin]

My main reason for getting the D200 (s) was that I wanted a different housing from the one that was making me miserable with the S2 (s). I will have to wait to see a VISIBLE difference in the pictures before I put anything else in a housing especially if it's expensive. (Once you've washed a couple of cameras, you start to slow down on that front!) The D3 will allow me to use all those Nikon lenses I have from the past , I guess.

[davichin]

One thing you will not be able to use with only a new back is the liveview thing. The reason is that the control that activates Liveview is the shooting mode wheel: from DPReview:

[paquito]

Davichin, there are housings where control this knob is already in place.

For the devil's advocates, I think what’s being lost here is the fact that we are not talking about a major upgrade to the outside design of the D300 over the D200. We are talking about apples-to-apples here whereas some people think we are not. Wea re just speculating obviously. But if speculation holds true, the D300 will be such a close-to, and quite possibly, exact match, on 5 sides to the D20O with the back being the only exception or possible 1mm tray adjustment. That’s it! (enthusiastically hopeful) One could simply be exchanged for the other, back and forth.

This is not something we are used to seeing being so closely matched up, especially in a design that is so very popular.

So if only the back is the real difference in this new camera, then having the option to simply upgrade the back of any existing D200 housing to accommodate the new D300 is what were after. Personally, I’m not seeing the D300 as a giant leap forward over the D200. Instead, what I would like to see from it is the hopes that it handles highlights better, has lower noise, and with it I have the option to use the live view when situations dictate that it would make life easier. Then, buying another D200 body as a back up really would not make sense. If my speculation (and a lot of other people’s as well) holds true that the D300 is truly going to be an ergonomic match, I am hopeful that the housing manufacturer’s take note and simply do not get greedy and offer us a new back to current D200 housings. You will have a lot of very happy customers out there willing to buy. If the same holds true and the cameras DO match but the housing manufacturer’s do NOT make a new back for existing housings, I think they will see less sales overall.

It’s my opinion that with this particular situation with these two cameras, the D200 and D300, I find it one where I think it really could turn out to be a win-win situation for everyone

[james]

Here's a rhetorical question: Did y'all think the D2Xs was a worthwhile step up from the D200? If yes, then the D300 is basically a D2Xs in a smaller package, and with a better AF system.

I doubt there were be many D200 users who would have turned down a free upgrade from a D200 to a D2Xs. The D300, because of its small size seems even better.

James

[pmooney]

I actually know a few folk that are excited about the D300 for exactly the reason James puts forward. They for various reasons are very keen to shed the bulk of the D2X(s) and the various housings.

I predict that apart from being a smash hit of a camera there will also be a glut of D70/D100 series cameras and housings come available / traded in as people upgrade thereby making it possible for other folk to join the hobby.