159 replies to this topic

[Mark100]

Think also a plus point the LED's stays coler (temperature) above water compared with Hid and Halogene.

[echeng]

Shawn just brought a prototype unit down to the Bahamas for some shark work, and I have to say, the lights were really cool. Instant on, super bright, etc. etc. We used a filter that L&M provided, and when white balanced in the blue water of the Bahamas. It matched well enough to be close enough for easy post (if that makes sense).

The prototype battery required an additional bulkhead in the housing connected to a metal box attached to the top of the housing, but this obviously won't be in the final version.

I'd try to get Shawn to post some sample footage, but he hasn't slept much in the last few weeks and is headed out to Indo in two days.

[videodan]

This L&M New Product Spotlight just released today explains about their Sunray LED lights. Good article dispelling some of the myths about LED's, and presenting facts. Also has a comparison chart with specs for all of their lights.
Dan

[craig]

"In addition LEDs, if properly selected, have better CRI (color rendering index)and more stable output compared to HIDs and Halogens. "

I wonder how LED selection allows them to have better CRI than halogen?

I'm curious why LMI didn't state what the CRI is in that article. They've done the "proper selection"; they know what it is.

[Drew]

Yeah be interesting to see how CRI can be better than 100 of halogens, unless they are referring to voltage variations.

[videodan]

In the attached chart, they list the Sunray 1000 and 2000 LED's CRI as 80, the Sunray HID as 65-80, and the Sunray Elite Halogen as 85. Now IMHO only, I believe color temperature is the most important factor for underwater videographers, and we want the color temp to closely approximate the sun. Halogen lights with their lower color temp, give everything a warmer reddish hue, while high color temp sources (HID, Hi-Performance LED) give a more natural look, regardless of a slightly lower CRI. We also want the CRI to be in a high range also. "Any CRI rating of 80 or above is normally considered high and indicates that the source has good color" is quoted from Sylvania Light Color Characteristics. I own Sunray Elite Halogen lights which are very good lights, but when I bought the Sunray HID's, it was a night and day difference in light quality. When my Sunray 2000 LED's finally arrive, I'm sure I'll never look back. The future is LED's.
Dan

[craig]

Some observations:

According to this chart, LMI's claim that LED CRI can surpass halogen if properly selected means that they didn't properly select their LEDs.

Any company that is getting only an 85 CRI out of halogen is doing it wrong. A halogen that is being run in the halogen cycle will have a CRI of 100. LMI's halogen is spec'ed at 23 lumens/watt. There are halogens that produce 40 lumens/watt though they're always higher wattage bulbs. LMI's halogen isn't running hot enough.

Notice that LMI's HID product is only 43 lumens/watt IGNORING ballast efficiency and probably 36-39 overall. That's not enough of an advantage over a good 50W, 32 l/w halogen to justify all the downsides i.e. ballasts, warm-up, poor CRI, expense and costly replacement bulbs IMO. A properly done 50W halogen outpowers the LMI HID and renders color better.

Why didn't LMI include wattage in their LED lights in this table? They did for the others.

Photographic "high CRI" is 90 or greater. Light sources that do not possess "high CRI" should not have their CCTs compared. You cannot say with any assurance which light will be a better match to anything based on CCTs alone unless they are sufficiently full-spectrum.

The article linked to is not written from a photographic perspective and their claim that high CRI is above 80 may be true of general purpose lighting but it is not true for the interests of people on this board. When HMI lighting was created, and all it is is HID modified to solve the CRI problem, every HMI lamp had a CRI over 90. There's a reason for that. The Sylvania article did say this:

"However, since CRI figures are calculated for light sources of a specific color temperature, it is not valid to compare a 2700K, 82 CRI light source to one of 3500K, 85 CRI."

You should never compare CCTs of light sources that don't have high CRI. Sadly, the typical manufacturer of underwater lighting is ignorant of that.

I don't believe that CCT is "the most important factor". Good color rendering, a smooth beam, good coverage, and adequate power are all important and arguably more important than CCT. Good CCT means that the light is a better match for ambient in mixed lighting situations. That's irrelevant if the lighting hasn't met other requirements first.

The LMI LED lights look much more appealing than their HID light. I'd like to see better CRI but since the standard has sank so low with HID most people will be pleased.

[Drew]

I agree with Craig on the specs for the LMI halogen either being erroneous or they implemented it wrong. Halogen bulbs like the HLX have 100 CRI unless they are running below efficiency. There is no way halogen, esp tungsten, can be at 65CRI. The chart must be in error.
Now the real issue is whether the new HD cameras can actually use the 100CRI beam anyhow. Which would make for a good experiment for shooting a color chart with HMI, HID, LED and halogen lighting (WB to a 18% grey card) and use a vector scope to see the effectiveness of each on video. Any volunteers?

[craig]

I think it would be very interesting to see color charts under various lights. It would be nice to use a chart that contains the actual colors used in the CRI calculation.

I do that for my strobes using the color checker chart, but strobes have very good CRI and the colors on that chart are accurate.

I'm sure all cameras are sensitive to the full visible spectrum so 100 CRI should be of benefit. It's not clear how different the results would be though.

[Drew]

It seems I should be able to test a color chart with HID, halogen and possibly HMI if I feel like carrying the darn thing. Will let you all know the results if I manage to do it.

[Nick Hope]

Anyone got the Sunray 1000s in the water yet?

I notice B&H now has the Sunray 1000s at $2,299.

L&M tell me they are no longer building the long "X-pods", the ones that run the full length of the Bluefin FX1. Which is a shame because I feel the full length gives more stability when the housing is laid on sand. But they will do an upgrade to an existing set of lights that has the long pods. That still costs $1,799 however, which makes it a very close decision to just getting a new set and keeping/selling the old ones.

There's a lot of talk about the 2000s but I think for many people the 1000s might be more suitable. I'm told it has 3 settings: Full, half and quarter, and that the half power is near the Elite's full power. In other words they're bright and of course they are cheaper.

[Drew]

Just get better halogens or HMI, Nick... It's still the one to beat.

[biminitwist]

Nick did LM mention what the upgrade with your existing pods entailed, new LED heads and cable to your existing batteries/pods? It would seem since your not getting new (albeit short) pods and batteries the $500 difference between the two is a bit off. Would they return your HID light heads or is that part of the upgrade costs? I have been disappointed with them lately which is a pity since I liked my three previous LM housings. Thanks. John

[Nick Hope]

The $500 difference is based on the B&H price for a new set which is $300 cheaper than list. So the difference based on list prices is $800.

L&M price list here

Sunray 1000 page here

B&H Sunray 1000 page here

For the upgrade you send in the pods and they change the bulkhead which has 3 pins instead of 2 so the head and pod can communicate.

I think you can keep your old heads but they won't work with the upgraded pods.

I don't know if the upgrade includes a new pair of batteries so I will ask. The latest batteries give 3000 mAH in the 10.5" pod length, which is the same as what the older 11.75" batteries for the FX1 pod gave. They are no longer making the longer FX1 length pods. I am pondering an upgrade to my longer pods and just packing the extra space if I get new batteries (which would be shorter).

[biminitwist]

Thanks Nick. That sounds like a good idea using the new shorter batteries in the longer pods, provided the burn times are close. If they change the bulkhead to 2 pins for the light heads would your old batteries still work. If so, at least you would then have spares (and could use your gorilla-pod tripod modification too). I have seen a few people using the new Bluefins and their battery pods stick out past the housing on the lens end which looks awkward. Lets us know what you find out. Thanks. John

Edited by biminitwist, 16 April 2008 - 05:05 AM.

[Nick Hope]

John, I think they are talking about the "live" number of pins. So the older bulkhead has 2 live pins (plus 1 non-live) and the newer bulkhead presumably has 3 live pins. As I understand it the batteries themselves are all compatible with older and newer systems. I've asked L&M for some clarification and will let you know unless they post here themselves.

[Nick Hope]

I got this from L&M:

The upgrade does not include batteries. The upgrade is two light heads and
the parts and labor for the pod modifications. Pod modification includes a
new bulkhead and new circuit board.

Yes, old light heads can be kept.

We'll have a Sunray 2000 upgrade also once we have determined costing. It
will be the same path; two new light heads and pod modification.

We have dropped our price on all batteries and our charger to $150 and $89
respectively.

FYI - The Sunray 2000s have three power settings like the Sunray 1000s, full
- half - quarter.

[Art99]

I got this from L&M:

The upgrade does not include batteries. The upgrade is two light heads and
the parts and labor for the pod modifications. Pod modification includes a
new bulkhead and new circuit board.

Yes, old light heads can be kept.

We'll have a Sunray 2000 upgrade also once we have determined costing. It
will be the same path; two new light heads and pod modification.

We have dropped our price on all batteries and our charger to $150 and $89
respectively.

FYI - The Sunray 2000s have three power settings like the Sunray 1000s, full
- half - quarter.

[Art99]

Does anyone understand why the connector on the battery pod needs to be changed for a Sunray1000 upgrade (or why the Sunray 1000 has a different connector?

An upgraded pod would no longer work with an older, e.g. halogen, light head???

My understanding of the operation of the earlier battery pods, like the 35W halogen, is that they achieved multi-levels by PWM (pulse width modulation) of the battery. This would also work with LEDs.

Any insights???

Art99

[Nick Hope]

As I understand it the upgraded pods won't work with your old light heads. No idea why there is an extra pin in the new connector other than "communication".