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Manipulation of subjects for the shot.


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#101 Scuba_SI

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:09 AM

I don't think ALL people using spikes are any more responsible as ALL people using "one finger".


But almost everyone has fingers, and they are much more careful where they put them.

We could do a statistical test to compare the percentage of people with fingers that cause damage to the reef by using one to steady themselves against the percentage of people with pointers or 'sand spikes' that cause damage to the reef, if you like....

:D

My issue is not with using aluminium pokey sticks or whatever you want to call them, it was the fact that you called into question the sanity of anyone that disagreed with your opinion.

However, just think of all the burrowing creatures you might be killing by spiking the sand....worm murder is still a crime, just imagine the poor little orphan worms after you spiked their mommy :)

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#102 pakman

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:25 AM

And we should also force everyone to dive in their bathing suits so they learn to keep their appendages off coral... After a few nice coral sting/ welt on the legs, I suspect their buoyancy will improve...

or the sale of pointers will skyrocket... :)

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#103 zippsy

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 01:15 AM

Hehe.. no, its a private joke between them from another board.. they are friends

ooops. I forgot my smilie. :) I did guess he was joking.

#104 cor

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 02:43 AM

But almost everyone has fingers, and they are much more careful where they put them.

We could do a statistical test to compare the percentage of people with fingers that cause damage to the reef by using one to steady themselves against the percentage of people with pointers or 'sand spikes' that cause damage to the reef, if you like....

I think you will lose that one, my money is on Allison. I think a very large source of damage to the reef caused by divers is people holding on to the reef with their hands. There is a reason parts of the Caribbean have a no-glove rule. This has nothing to do with photography, but it's there nonetheless.

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#105 Scuba_SI

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 03:12 AM

hehe, i was being facetious...

The point i was trying to get across was that if you randomly picked x people that advocated an ungloved finger and x that used a stick (say 10 with 0-50 dives, 10 with 50-100 etc), and followed them for a few dives you might find that the ones with sticks caused more damage, including damage to the poor worms under the sand :'(

Having worked with pointer carriers in Asia and the Pacific for many years i can speak of many people rubbing whip corals, touching hard corals and being generally naughty, more so than people who dove with bare hands.

hehehe, off topic here we are!

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#106 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 04:17 AM

Ha. Fun argument. I think that both sticks and fingers are fine if used properly and minimally. The problem isn't the equiment, but the user!

I agree with Simon that you don't see people digging mimics and wunderpus out of their holes with their bare hands or sticking their fingers down one end of a mantis burrow. But I have also dived with many photographers who use sticks to really mimimise their contact on mucky dive sites.

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#107 dbh

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 05:18 AM

Back to the topic of u/w photographers behaving badly, I remember reading a story about a diver of a certain Asian nationality cutting up a frogfish with his knife after taking his photos to prevent others from getting the same shot during a competition... :) :D


Hmmm....I heard a similar story....only this diver (Asian) squeezed a Pygmy between his thumb & index finger to prevent others from shooting it.

Could these be folklore??

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#108 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 05:35 AM

The story I know was that the (American) diver broke a section of a seafan (complete with pygmy) to stop others photographing it in Wakatobi. Does anyone know if there is any truth to these stories?

Alex

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#109 pakman

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 06:00 AM

Wetpixel Urban Myths... lol!

Edited by pakman, 31 December 2007 - 07:05 AM.

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#110 giftie

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 07:06 AM

Don't forget that 1 billion people rely on seafood alone for their food. Having spent a bit of time with Indonesian marine park managements, I see that fisheries management is working hard to protect the reefs while enabling the locals to feed AND make a little money exporting their fish. It seems sustainable to that end, barring an ecological effect that is beyond fisheries control.
Ocean acidification, global warming, chemical runoff, toxic/sewage waste dumping, oil spills, plastics... all those things (and many more) affect the ocean. Overfishing isn't merely a function of demand for seafood. It's also about governments keeping people employed so they can keep their votes. Democracy is a bitch sometimes too.
On the bigger picture, we are all hypocrites. Right now, the products we use to type this can't be that good for the environment. It's using electricity (at least mine is partially offset with solar power :) and we use it to plan trips that use 4000 liters of petrol and motor oil in a month, some of which is leaked into the ocean via the outboard motor.
So how minimal is our footprint vs the fisherman who line fishes from his dugout, bring home his fish to be eaten in his non-electric powered home in the Sulu Sea?


Despite my efforts (and I do try hard) my Carbon footprint is for sure much higher than that fishermen (in fact probably higher than his all family) but I can tell you that my reef destruction footprint (using "properly" the so called finger technique) is nothing compared with his reef destruction footprint.
Actually in some dives sites around Bali one pays the locals to dive and the locals keep their nets way from the sites. They make more money from the fees they charge the divers than they would get from fishing around and everybody is happy, the divers are happy because the fish is still there and the locals too because they make more money than they would do by fishing just sitting around.
As far as I am concerned this scheme is one that actually works provided that is enforced from both sides equally, i.e. dive operators will pay a fee to local communities but local communities will have to engage in non destructive fishing practices (like dropping their nets on the reef) and abstain from fishing in a number of areas with the overall aim of reducing overall catch. Is it "interfering" with their traditional way of living, yes probably it is but the alternative is?

Minimizing our footprint is a great step. Then we should push one step more after that and minimize some more. It's the industrialization of our civilization that has given us much of these problems the planet is suffering from. I don't see too many volunteers wanting to go back to the stone age. See how trying to bring in the 'big' picture does nothing but stall any action on the little picture? :D


I agree to some extent, we have to clean up act and our industries have to become much, much more cleaner but even (let's assume) that all human activity would become carbon neutral and squeaky clean there will still be a major problem and the problem relates directly to our numbers. Global population is growing and the most likely scenarios I have seen indicate that it will continue to grow for the foreseeable future, where do you think those people are going to get their food, living space, energy, etc, etc, from? Even if our industries are much cleaner, we would still need more resources, more space, more clothes, more fish, more meat, more computers, more and more and where exactly are we going to get that from?
The "big picture" is that the our numbers are too "big" for this planet and without a sensible, aka "really sustainable" demographic policy worldwide we will soon finnish what we have started some time ago. This is the bottom line. If we do not succeed in limiting our numbers soon whatever we do no matter how successfully we do it, is just sort of postponing the inevitable.

I fail to see how bringing in the big picture stalls any action in on the little picture, what I have wrote is that it seems to me that the impact of using "the finger or not" is pretty meaningless compared to the damage that other human activities (including the local fishermen) have on the reef and perhaps (just as an e.g. amongst others) if we all stop eating fish that we are not sure how it was catch maybe we will be doing more good to the reef than discussing if using a finger/stick by default is an acceptable practice or not.
I do not remember writing that is ok to stick your finger and/or stick no matter where or what! If used properly using a stick or 1/2 fingers to stabilize your rig does not necessarily lead to damage and might even prevent further, unintended damage in current, heavy swell, etc. It is all a question of good sense, can I take the picture without using any support? If not, can I use the stick/fingers without doing any damage to the reef? If not, does getting this picture really justifies the damage I am causing? probably not...fine, another place, another time but let´s keep things in perspective and that includes not making rush judgments on anyone that takes a stick with him on a dive like he/she is some sort of underwater criminal.

Happy New Year Drew.
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#111 Kelpfish

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 07:29 AM

Using a finger is great if you don't wear gloves. Wearing gloves, by human nature, provides a comfort zone that ineptly promotes using two fingers, then three, then the palm? Why? You won't get stung. The reef stick, used properly as many have already identified, on a small portion of the reef is a huge help to the photographer and to the reef (in my opinion). The best way is not to touch the reef at all but I doubt that this is realistic in a growing hobby such as scuba and UW photography. Let's face it, with digital any diver can become an underwater photographer, and many divers, new and experienced, have become UW photographers in the last five years with the advent of digital. So we're not going to decrease the impact on the reefs any other way than bringing awareness and education into the picture and probably have all resort management, dive boat management and certification agencies teach generally accepted reef and marine life interaction skills. Because it really is skill that reduces your impact to a reef or marine life and you begin to raise your camera to your eye. And not knowing ANYTHING about how your actions impact an animal or habitat means you are likely going to cause some form of preventable harm. It's all about education and awareness as I have stated in previous posts. Not just on the diver (who we are speaking about) but on the resort divemasters, dive guides, certifying agencies, instructors, PRO shooters, etc. We ALL have a responsibility to be responsible. The kind of images created through gross manipulation is, in my opinion, misrepresenting the dive location.

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#112 CamDiver

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Posted 01 January 2008 - 08:32 PM

actually its the English who wear women's clothing and hang around in bars....

Such good timing that you mention that...

Well I guess thats the last time you go to that particular bar. I knew you had weird taste but, ewwwww!

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#113 Scuba_SI

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Posted 01 January 2008 - 10:51 PM

Ahem, Gentlemen let's keep this on topic shall we....

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#114 pakman

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Posted 01 January 2008 - 11:31 PM

Ahem, Gentlemen let's keep this on topic shall we....





dunno, seems we have beaten this topic to death already... Maybe we need to liven the thread up with photos of cross-dressing pommies. Now where is Veitch with that pic... :)

Edited by pakman, 01 January 2008 - 11:32 PM.

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#115 zippsy

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Posted 01 January 2008 - 11:47 PM

nevermind, I thought better of it and the photo was too large anyway :)

Edited by zippsy, 01 January 2008 - 11:49 PM.


#116 Scuba_SI

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Posted 01 January 2008 - 11:57 PM

dunno, seems we have beaten this topic to death already... Maybe we need to liven the thread up with photos of cross-dressing pommies. Now where is Veitch with that pic... :)


Hehe, well, the young lady with the offensive pictures lost her phone on teh way back, so the only one with a picture is me.


It ain't happening :D

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#117 MikeVeitch

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 12:17 AM

oh it could happen soon....

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#118 CamDiver

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 04:42 AM

Ahhh, so its OK to go OT now then?

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#119 Scuba_SI

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 06:34 AM

no, no, no. OT is never allowed on wetpixel. Drew will spank us.

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#120 rodriguezfelix

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 07:50 AM

The story I know was that the (American) diver broke a section of a seafan (complete with pygmy) to stop others photographing it in Wakatobi. Does anyone know if there is any truth to these stories?

Alex


I think is hard to tell if this stories are real or just urban legend, but I heard a lot, and I mean a lot of this stories happening on the Spain contests... maybe someone of the many Spanish wetpixelers can verify this?