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Japanese whalers take custody of Sea Shepherd crew


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#61 njs

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 02:28 AM

hey guys - thought id throw my opinion in as a new member.
what concerns me most about this whole discussion is that there seems to be a sway towards finding some sort of middle ground where whaling is sunstainable. let me repeat that. where whaling is sustainable. to be perfectly honest i think that is one of the most ridiculous statements i have ever read.

of all the species on the planet we are the ones that fortunately made it to the top of the tree. as an evolved species i would like to think that we can look across this world and appreciate that everything else living in it is subject to our actions and choices. to understand this makes us humble and respective of our position within evolution. with regards to comparing the eating of chicken and whale meat - what on earth are you talking about sunshine? chicken is (unfortunately) sustainable well beyond our needs as a battery produced meat. we will be able to eat chicken till the cows come home. as far as whales are concerned - we are talking about not only one of the most intelligent species on the planet (as all of the marine mammals are) - but we are also talking about a species that has been around so long they got OUT of the water sometime within their evolution - clearly didnt like what they found up here (who can blame them) then chose to get back into the sea. THAT is a species which has been around for some time. we on the other hand have considered ourselves evolved for 2000 years or so and still believe or condone that murdering them is the best way to learn about them. whoever came up with that excuse is a f**king genius and has balls the size of watermelons. To even consider the argument that harpooning them is for the purpose of scientific research - is tatamount to condoning their slaughter for target practice.

I understand the argument that you cant stop them fully so a middle ground is required. unfortuately i think this is an awful solution to a barbaric act. it seems to me that sitting on the fence regarding such subjects only leads the truly determined (ie the whalers) to get what they want. but hey - thats what the british have been great at doing for so long dont you think? a middle ground is only going to come about when 2 sides determined in their course of action cannot agree. that is why in this day and age the acts of Sea Shepherd are required. to be honest - and i hate to say it - but i think sustainable whaling will be the only possible outcome if such acts by environmentalists are ALLOWED to continue. you really think any reduction in harpooning will come about by asking for it. if you believe that you'll believe anything

Edited by njs, 19 January 2008 - 03:38 AM.


#62 bartusderidder

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 02:46 AM

Just to make absolutely clear: I did not mean to insult the entire Japanese race/population, it was not a derogatory remark.

My sincere apologies if I did: I should have been more cautious in putting my words together.


DISGUSTING hamburger.


Hi Vincent,

I was about to reply yesterday when Wetpixel went down...

Anyway, apology accepted here too, much happier with the (word) "hamburger". :)

All I wanted to point out is that a term that is fine (i.e. no derogatory meaning) in your frame of reference (e.g. with your grandfather, in the Netherlands, even with your Japanese friends) might not be fine in a discussion with an international panel/audience, which after all Wetpixel is.

Best regards,

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#63 Drew

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 03:23 AM

Firstly, I am shocked that I am on a forum for divers - wow. Secondly how on earth can you compare a lion killing a wildebeest to the horrors happening out on the seas. For a start a lion MUST kill to survive or it will die - simple fact. The mouths of the Japanese or any person eating whale meat do not require it to survive - is there not already enough choice on this planet in terms of food that we have to tap an already taxed source!!

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Divers are also people who live in different walks of life all over the world. And not everyone shares your beliefs. While I agree that whale meat isn't a staple diet for many Japanese nowadays, it was for many decades. And while the meat may not be utilized in the same fashion, the industry has been built that way and many of those fishermen rely on the jobs to survive. So yes, in that sense, it's whale or go jobless and starve. There is no unemployment social security in Japan for fishermen from what I remember.
I'm also glad you see whales as a resource. Then what you are protesting about is the 'magic' sustainable number. That is something speaking with cetacean experts and other experts are trying to agree on. The analogy of the lion or orca is about the cruelty argument that many use to protest whaling. To me, anytime you eat meat, there is some sort of cruelty in the slaughter of the animal.

Thirdly, I hate this pathetic argument about culture, years ago people armed themselves with a simple harpoon and a rowing/sailing vessel, where the numbers of whales were quite sustainable and most probably a requirement for life in terms of oil and food! Compare this to highly advanced ships with GPS and horribly powerful and accurate harpoons - this no longer makes it a hunt, it turns it into a slaughter.

Actually, it was around the turn of the century and into 1960s that whaling did most of the damage to the population, with the good ol' harpoons. Whale meat wasn't about survival for the industrialized world but a 'cheap' source of materials. Blubber for cosmetics etc. Only the various inuit, makah and other tribes hunted for 'survival,' and really it's because they wanted to maintain their culture, with the added conveniences of motorized boats and guns.
It is precisely that it's so easy to find and kill whales that some sort of quota is needed. To expect total removal of whaling from this planet is unrealistic at this point.

Whaling is wrong, there is no other way to look at it, I don't care if someone's great great great granddad was doing it 200 years ago...

Whaling is still part of the fishing industry to this day. The cultural argument was given to the indigenous tribes which relied on it years ago. Then the norwegians, icelanders and japanese (among others) picked up on it to support their whaling industry.
I personally dislike whaling, especially for endangered species. To say it's universally wrong, you must have good reason. The cruelty argument is very subjective, one side is antropomorphic and the other comes from observation of the natural world. The only real argument at hand is sustainability. However, arguments on sustainability numbers will always to fought over. Chilean Seabass was not sustainable (and is virtually gone in the South Eastern Pacific), neither was sardine fishing in the californian pacific(hasn't been back in decades), sharks worldwide(we all know why), halibut,herring in the north sea... the list goes on. Why is it that cetaceans get the emotional response? In particular, why is it the biggest response when it's the Japanese? They are hunting legally and within IWC loopholes, but nonetheless legally. The Norwegians merely object to the IWC rules and are free to set their own quotas. They did so since 93. Hell Paul Watson spent a few days in jail in Norway trying to stop them. Where is the same outrage that the Japanese seem to get?
The hector and maui dolphins in NZ number in the hundreds and are at the brink of extinction. To save them would mean changing the NZ net fishing approach. How big is the uproar against the NZ fisheries?
Of course, the NZ government says they are against whaling (having a whalewatching industry) and also pushing the flack onto the japanese while 2 species of cetaceans will be extinct sooner than any of the whales because they don't want to act to save them.
The unfortunate truth is too many people get their emotions worked up over 'cuddly' creatures and seldom see the big picture. These emotions allow them to justify all sorts of things they'd normally not condone, including hurting a fellow human being for trying to make a living (albeit an unpopular one).

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#64 njs

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 03:36 AM

regardless of how you look at it - people never realise the damage done until its too late. whaling will continue until whales are gone. simple fact. sustainability is a nonsense word for condoning an act that although 'may' have been necessary in the previous century - it certainly has no place in the modern world.
to say it should be allowed to continue on some level due to job losses etc is appalling. sacrifices have to be made and im sorry - but if the survival of one of the most majestic species on the planet is dependent on every whaler losing his job and having to find alternative sources of income - so be it. its rare to be able to do something wonderful without something bad happening. deal with it and stop pussy footing about

Edited by njs, 19 January 2008 - 03:46 AM.


#65 Scuba_SI

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 04:01 AM

To me, anytime you eat meat, there is some sort of cruelty in the slaughter of the animal.


don't watch this video while you're eating beef!

found on a similar thread in scuba-bored

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#66 pakman

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 05:11 AM

Simon, I'm not an expert on cattle slaughtering but I thought most modern cattle slaughter is done with a bolt gun to the head.

I think the turning of the cow and severing its neck maybe the kosher or Halal requirements (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this).

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#67 writepic

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 05:11 AM

firstly i don't think that video of a beef animal being slaughtered has anything to do with the topic at hand, and if you go to the proponents website, there are easy to find links for organic meat sources and fish pie.
when a fish dies does it feel any more or less pain than that bull that is electrically killed and then bled? and is organic meat killed any more humanely? it's quite easy to edit together a piece of propaganda like this, and am i being cynical noticing that the first link on the go veg website is "donate"?

i think the arguments here about seashepherd are fairly typical of the critique faced by it on a world scale. whilst most posters here are eager to champion seashepherd for its role in galapagos, it should not go unnoticed that seashepherds last foray into ecuador was a complete disaster, and typical of its blundering heavy handed approach, whilst still managing to limp away seeming victorious....oh yes those bad ecuadoreans threw us out (again)...oh me oh my give us more money so we can try to piss them off again.
personally i see little effort by sea shepherd to educate local people, to engage in government policy, to try to bring sustainability into fishery policy. watson does what we'd all love to do, he goes in and punches the perpetrator squarely on the nose, and we are all happy to pay him to do it. however, i don't think people that have been punched on the nose become good ambassadors for the puncher, rather the opposite.
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#68 Scuba_SI

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 05:32 AM

Simon, I'm not an expert on cattle slaughtering but I thought most modern cattle slaughter is done with a bolt gun to the head.

I think the turning of the cow and severing its neck maybe the kosher or Halal requirements (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this).


yeah i know, just being irrelevant as usual. :)

Pretty gruesome though, i should imagine some of those whales go through similar pain and torture as they are being hauled up, and i think we agree that a whale is as, if not more intelligent than a cow.

On the subject of taking action though, how many people dive in countries that support commercial whaling? I know i've seen the Japanese 'research ships' in Palau, in fact i think it may have been the deathstar itself.

I contribute directly to the demise of the Whales due to apathy and not wishing to inconvenience myself by boycotting certain products. No amount of angry posts on here are likely to stop Whales being killed. It is much like the manipulation thread, discussion could go on forever. Some of us love sea shepard, some hate them.

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#69 Drew

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 05:45 AM

Writepic
To be fair to SS and Watson on Galapagos, there were extenuating circumstances. Corrupt officials, including a backtrack from El Presidente Correa himself about sharks fin and the mafia getting involved. I can personally tell you the mafia controls the fishermen and has a fair amount of influence on the government. Money is very powerful in a poor country. Another reality that many of us don't seem to realize.
The fact is that Sea Shepherd has done a lot of good before Presidente Correa did his pullback. Was Watson's demeanor part of the problem? I won't speculate on that. Will it take a different attitude to deal with the corruption? Probably, because the old days are over. If a country that prohibits sharks finning can say sharks caught in bycatch is finnable then it's really the fault of the Ecuadorians. We can always blame the demand of sharks for this drive. But if it isn't sharks fin, it'll be sea cucumber, fish, cocaine or anything that the black market wants.

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#70 writepic

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 06:07 AM

drew,

with all due respect i know what drives the forces in ecuador, i've lived there and been involved in the dive/photography industry for the last four years. my own monitoring activities on the coast of ecuador would indicate that the 19,000 fins hauled by seashepherd and claimed by them to be a shipment of illegally caught fins from the galapagos, could very easily have been amassed through the daily capture of fins all along ecuadors rather extensive coast. whilst these are influenced by the black market demand, they are a far cry from the longlining ships that come into galapagos waters and leave again probably without ever touching land anywhere near ecuador. such operation are helped by a corrupt navy and are invested in by the galapagenian police.

i know personally the individual that helped o'hearn out of ecuador before he was shipped out via the dead mans door, who risked personal safety, property and money to ensure he got out alive. SS never even sent them a word of thanks. all we heard from them was how they "captured" 19,000 fins (that may not have even been from galapagos), and how they alerted the world as to how a bloodbath was opening up in ecuador due to relegalised finning. is it any better now? no. was it any better before? no. ecuadorean fishermen have always been able to sell their fins (legally or illegally). to this day they do not embark on finning, the sharks are landed whole, and fins are removed on land. this is a lot better practice than is happening in european waters, where loopholes allow real finning to take place on even more sharks.

no im not making excuses for ecuadorean policy, in fact im doing everything my small budget allows to embark on programmes there to see the situation improves, but i don't believe in overt propaganda, which is probably why i'll spend every last of my not many pennies on my projects rather than running a 20 million dollar operation like SS.

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#71 pakman

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 07:04 AM

Just a few updates on the drama in the Antarctic...

Protesters turn on each other in sea hunt for whalers

and an interview with one of the "hostages"

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#72 pakman

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 07:31 AM

And if you follow some of the links in that SMH article, there's an excerpt from Andrew Darby's Harpoon: Into The Heart Of Whaling that gives a little insight into the Japanese.

http://www.smh.com.a...0620212194.html

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#73 Drew

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 08:16 AM

... i think we agree that a whale is as, if not more intelligent than a cow.

Well, what difference does that make? Just because they are more intelligent therefore they are more important? I mean humans are dumber and they seem more important/ :)

On the subject of taking action though, how many people dive in countries that support commercial whaling? I know i've seen the Japanese 'research ships' in Palau, in fact i think it may have been the deathstar itself.

Let's face it. Japanese products are everywhere.

... No amount of angry posts on here are likely to stop Whales being killed. It is much like the manipulation thread, discussion could go on forever. Some of us love sea shepard, some hate them.

Perhaps not directly and definitely not the angry posts :). But opinions and discussion can change the attitudes of some readers who were either for or against it, even neutral to it. They may end up supporting or removing their support. Just as a Japanese reader may read this and go, hey this whaling thing is more complicated than some goofball foreigners telling me how and what to eat.


all we heard from them was how they "captured" 19,000 fins (that may not have even been from galapagos), and how they alerted the world as to how a bloodbath was opening up in ecuador due to relegalised finning. is it any better now? no. was it any better before? no. ecuadorean fishermen have always been able to sell their fins (legally or illegally). to this day they do not embark on finning, the sharks are landed whole, and fins are removed on land. this is a lot better practice than is happening in european waters, where loopholes allow real finning to take place on even more sharks.

Mark
Remember that all these agencies and societies HAVE to engage in propaganda. It's called PR spin. That's why you have so many people crying over whales and dolphins but ignoring the plight of countless other species that are even more endangered. Without spin and PR, the public would never know about these things.

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#74 vincentkneefel

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 08:31 AM

Who has a right to tell someone they can't do something if it's done in a sustainable way?


What is your definition of sustainability here exactly? Numbers that hover just above extinction or a percentage of the original numbers? Although I study business, I reject to see this issue as an economic topic.

Do you want to tell your children that you do not protest against the Japanese to stop whale hunting because this happens to be done in a sustainable way?


Compassion is the key word: why can't we live in peace with a mammal that is considered highly intelligent and has empathy from the majority of this world population?

Making Whales and Dolphins worldwide protected animals, this sets out a great example to future generations. This planet is not just about harvesting as much as we can (even in a sustainable way), it is also about Stewardship. This goes for many topics (Global warming, other species, pollution, etc), but Whale hunting is really the easiest problem to solve, the other ones are much more complicated.
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#75 bartusderidder

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 08:50 AM

...has empathy from the majority of this world population?...


With so many people living in poverty and fighting their daily struggle for life, I think you'll have a hard time actually finding 3.5 billion people who actually empathize with a whale.

I hope you're not making such generalisations in your business plans...It's not because you feel so deeply about whales and dolphins that you can speak for the rest of the world. Going along that line: if "empathy" is a reason to protect a species, then the abscene of it would be an excuse to kill it???....poor sharks (as a minority of people empathize with them)

Oh, and just for the record, I'm against whaling and dolphin slaughtering too

Edited by bartusderidder, 19 January 2008 - 08:55 AM.


#76 vincentkneefel

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 09:08 AM

With so many people living in poverty and fighting their daily struggle for life, I think you'll have a hard time actually finding 3.5 billion people who actually emphatize with a whale.


Since when does empathy have to do something with money?


I hope you're not making such generalisations in your business plans...It's not because you feel so deeply about whales and dolphins that you can speak for the rest of the world.


I explicitly stated: I do not see this issue as an economic topic > so please do not relate it to my professional background.

This is just my personal view and if you consider them generalizations, so be it. At least I am sure there are far more people that oppose whale hunting than that are pro hunting.

Edited by vincentkneefel, 19 January 2008 - 09:13 AM.

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#77 Drew

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 09:40 AM

Vincent
I think you are misreading what I am saying. I'm for the stopping of whaling, however I'm not in the habit of shoving my doctrine on people who disagree with me. Not everyone cares if whales are intelligent, majestic and wonderful. It's the same as trying to push my religious doctrine on the next person. It DOESN'T WORK.
I'd bet that more people care more about soccer than whales. The Japanese and Norwegians will have to figure out themselves the consequences of their countrymen's whaling and convince them to abnegate whaling. So long as they don't hit the numbers below a certain point, which seemingly the IWC managed to do in 86'. It's not just about you and your views, although you are very welcome to air them.

but Whale hunting is really the easiest problem to solve, the other ones are much more complicated.

You're right it's been easy. Not one whale species has been extinct yet 1 species of cetacean, the Yangtze river dolphin or Baiji, did go extinct last year. The last 111 of the Maui dolphin are also facing extinction. So while all the news frenzy is on about 2 bozos trespassing and Japan's whaling (whether right or wrong, there are over 1 million minkes in the water right now), the maui will slip in extinction because the NZ government won't ban net fishing in their habitat area. The WWF managed to get 32k signatures and 100 school children to protest at the steps of the NZ parliment for the maui. No violence or antics, just plain peaceful protest and campaigning.

Since when does empathy have to do something with money?

It's call being human. More people care about cricket and soccer than whales. Welcome to reality.

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#78 bartusderidder

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 09:44 AM

Since when does empathy have to do something with money?


It's basic psychology, Vincent.
When people have to struggle to stay alive, they are less likely to be worried about other things in life. It's the Hierachy of Needs and as you can see "respect of others (if you may call an animal equal)" and "morality" only come into play when the other needs are fulfilled. If you had to place "empathy for an animal" in that pyramid it would only be found in the top layers.

I explicitly stated: I do not see this issue as an economic topic > so please do not relate it to my professional background.


My referral to your professional background has nothing to do with the presence/abscence of an economic topic in whaling, it was just hoping you aren't going to make any generalisations whenever you have to make a business plan in the future (to say it specifically: outside of whaling)

This is just my personal view and if you consider them generalizations, so be it. At least I am sure there are far more people that oppose whale hunting than that are pro hunting.


Probably, maybe, you'll find more people against than pro whale hunting....but in your previous post you were talking about "having empathy for an animal".....There's a nuance between those 2....

#79 vincentkneefel

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 10:24 AM

With so many people living in poverty and fighting their daily struggle for life, I think you'll have a hard time actually finding 3.5 billion people who actually empathize with a whale


> claiming that poor people would have less empathy with whales than rich people is in my opinion a derogatory remark.

Derogatory: tending to lessen the merit or reputation of a person or thing; disparaging; depreciatory: a derogatory remark.

It's basic psychology, Vincent.
When people have to struggle to stay alive, they are less likely to be worried about other things in life. It's the Hierachy of Needs and as you can see "respect of others (if you may call an animal equal)" and "morality" only come into play when the other needs are fulfilled. If you had to place "empathy for an animal" in that pyramid it would only be found in the top layers.


This is not true: indigenous cultures have much more respect and empathy for their environment than western civilization. However, by western standards these people are considered poor and uncivilized and therefore they would not be able to haveempathy with animals? Maslow’s recognition of self-actualized individuals was almost exclusively limited to Highly Educated White Males.
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#80 Craig Ruaux

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 10:46 AM

Since when does empathy have to do something with money?
I explicitly stated: I do not see this issue as an economic topic least


And so you are imposing own emotional position, your belief that whales are intelligent and that killing them is barbaric and that anyone who questions your position is at best an unenlightened soul and at worst a pro-whaling shill on top of an issue that is intrinsically economic. You ask:

What is your definition of sustainability here exactly? Numbers that hover just above extinction or a percentage of the original numbers?


Sustainability in resource management has many differently worded definitions, some of which are below:

  • A state or process that can be maintained indefinitely.
    www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/glossary/S.htm
  • The characteristic of being able to coexist with another system indefinitely, without either system being damaged
    library.thinkquest.org/22403/data/other/glossary.html
  • The ability of an ecosystem to maintain ecological processes and functions, biological diversity, and productivity over time.
    www.umpqua-watersheds.org/glossary/gloss_s.html
  • The concept of producing a biological resource under management practices that ensure replacement of the part harvested, by regrowth or reproduction, before another harvest occurs. (BC MoF Web Site Glossary)
    www.moricelakes-ifpa.com/glossary/index.html
  • The use of ecosystems and their resources in a manner that satisfies current needs without compromising the needs or options of future generations.
    www.ianclasbey.com/portfolio/nmfs/glossary.php
  • Sustainable development. The concept of meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs (from Our common future, see Brundtland Commission above). The term was originally applied to natural resource situations in a long term perspective. ...
    www.dantes.info/Projectinformation/Glossary/Glossary.html
  • A goal, that aims towards preserving quality interactions with the local environment, economy and social system.
    www.genencor.com/wt/gcor/glossary
  • An architectural property of a program which allows continued viability.
    web.mit.edu/oki/learn/gloss.html
  • To keep in existence; maintain. To supply with necessities or nourishment; provide for earth
    www.planetpals.com/ecodictionary.html
  • Economic development that takes full account of the environmental consequences of economic activity and is based on the use of resources that can be replaced or renewed and therefore are not depleted.
    biology.usgs.gov/s+t/SNT/noframe/zy198.htm
One thing you'll note in all those definitions is that words like "keeping at least 10%", or "hovering just above extinction" are not used. Sustainability studies and sustainable practice is about maintaining a "positive cash flow" in a resource, ensuring that the rate of removal of a resource from the existing pool does not exceed the rate of replenishment of a resource. Obviously if you are going to be trying to balance removal rate of a resource against replenishment rate of a resource, you need to actually know what the replenishment rate of the resource actually is. And that is the root question that the Japanese claim they are trying to answer with their "research whaling" activities. They claim, amongst other things, they they are estimating mortality rates within age groups, the relative importance of young vs old female whales in terms of reproductive success, the survival rate of infants. Killing random members of a population, aging them and looking at the relative proportion of the different age groups within the population is a perfectly valid method for doing this. You might not like the sound of it, but it is a method that has been used by ecologists world wide since the birth of ecology as a science.

[I'll throw in as a side bar here that while the methods being used may be valid, to date the ICR has not made huge impacts on the ecological literature. However, an oft repeated claim is that the ICR "has never published a peer-reviewed paper". This is not true.

See: Detection of heterogeneity and estimation of population characteristics from the field survey data: 1987/88 Japanese feasibility study of the southern hemisphere Minke whales. [i]Annals of the Institute of Statistical Mathematics[/i] http://www.springerl...G1221647807.pdf

or click on this link Google Scholar for Kasamatsu (Author) in Biology

To see the output of at least one researcher from the ICR who is investigating the very question "what are the population characteristics of the southern Minke Whale population"]


If we accept that sustainable whaling, in a nut shell, means that whaling removes a number of whales low enough to allow the species to continue for the foreseeable future, and that this can be achieved via application of quotas, and we assume that we will have the wherewithal to achieve quota conformity in the whaling nations, do we then accept whaling? If not, then you're going away from the economics and science of sustainable resource harvest and going into the murkier world of public opinion and moral righteousness.

My understanding of your position, and that of many other pro-Sea Shepherd posters in this thread, is that all whaling should be stopped. That's not sustainable resource management, that's absolutism. And that puts you in a position of trying to convince others of your moral position regarding whales, ie. that they should not be exploited, sustainably or not.

On that subject, you say:

I am sure there are far more people that oppose whale hunting than that are pro hunting.


I think you may be going out on a limb there Vincent. I would agree that probably far more people within Western developed countries oppose whaling than are pro-whaling, but I would not be so sure about the human population as a whole. As others have already observed, the majority of the world lives in a state that we would consider grinding poverty, and the fate of whales is far from their mind. I suspect that more people in the world are either pro-whaling or neutral on the issue than are anti-whaling, but I don't have any data to back that up. Equally, you don't have any data to support your position.

The thing is, if more of the world's population is pro- or neutral on whaling, then by what right do we try to tell them that their position is wrong. You can't just say "well of course our attitude is correct because we are the enlightened West", that's moral fascism. You can make the argument "if we take it all now there will be none left", but that leaves us back with the sticky problem of not really knowing how many is too many to take. Like it or not many people in the world don't share your opinion that whales are intelligent, magnificent creatures worthy of protection because of their "intrinsic value".

Getting back to Sea Shepherd, to date nobody seems to have come up with an argument suggesting that the methods currently being used are anything other than illegal. By taking this stance, Sea Shepherd is abandoning the rule of law, one of the things that allows our "enlightened" civilization to operate at a level that keeps us away from grinding poverty and able to worry about the world as a whole. I still am waiting for someone to show me that Sea Shepherd has measurably impacted whale mortality by their methods.

[edited for a minor typo]

Edited by Craig Ruaux, 19 January 2008 - 11:01 AM.

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