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Paul Watson reportedly shot in chest by Japanese Coast Guard


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#21 echeng

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 03:15 PM

And the escalation of violence is very true and no one has denied that. Provocation for that escalation cannot be denied either. I don't see your point? Seeing you know my history in conservation, I think you are really barking up the wrong tree. I just won't blindly follow anyone's claims without proof.


I agree with Drew. I don't believe anything I read if no credible evidence is supplied, but I also try not to vehemently claim that I don't believe (given the same situation).

Forensics can figure all of this out. Let's just hope that Watson turns the evidence over to Australian authorities.
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#22 Drew

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 01:44 AM

Eric, I agree with you on that. I wanted to highlight the inconsistencies of the claims before the usual hammering of the Japanese began.

Speaking of hammering the Japanese. According to a buddy of mine who is in the firearms industry, flashbang grenades (the JCG called them warning balls) depending on how old the design is can cause serious burns on exposed skin due to the heat element. Also the older designs had the fuse fly out like a projectile. These things can hurt someone if exploded in close proximity of someone (2m is the recommended distance from a person the device can be used), causing burns and also damage from the explosion. Newer designs minimize these effects but are still considered very dangerous. The good news is that there should be some sort of canister left from these devices so SS can submit this as evidence. The projectile pulled out of the vest did not look like a fuze.
Whatever it was, the Japanese have escalated this confrontation to new heights with the use of flashbang devices, which had potentially very serious injuries. However, the JCG hopefully did train their personnel to use them correctly.

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#23 zippsy

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 04:10 AM

yaaaaawn

#24 shawnh

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 06:48 PM

Based on my sources, this was a bullet. Furthermore this was not fabricated or a media stunt. An unidentified gunman shot Paul from a hidden location on the Japanese vessel. If it were not for the fact that Paul had taken to wearing an armor vest because of prior threats on his life, he would likely be dead. The Japanese have obviously taken this to next level and Paul's precaution was smart. The next shot will be a head shot you can be sure. So, say what you will about Sea Shepherds tactics, they certainly don't use snipers to try and kill their opponents.
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#25 wagsy

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 08:30 PM

If it was indeed a bullet then it could of quite easily hit him in the head as there is no way you can be that accurate from a moving ship.

I loved how they placed a tracking device on that ship....classic... :rolleyes:
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#26 Drew

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 10:17 PM

Well if it was attempted murder, then they should prosecute the Japanese in a court of law. Turn over evidence and have the Australians go after them.
What benefit would killing Watson have? Absolutely none unless they really wanted a martyr on their hands and a PR nightmare. Did they think the little fledglings would disperse once Watson was dead? Bewildering! Going with the expert marksman theory further, Watson's kevlar was showing, since there was no penetration of his outer jacket. Any marksman would know that his round would less effective against kevlar. And why one shot only? If they wanted to really kill him, they'd take as many as they needed to. Perhaps the JCG was shooting out in anger or a warning shot? All these scenarios make little sense.
On the other hand, having those 2 guys board the boat seemed to be a measured stunt to produce media opportunities (where trespassing becomes a hostage situation) and now if the report is true, they have also used that stunt to plant tracking devices on the ship. This would mean they planned to be detained and brought to the main boat. If so, these are very smart people waging a great PR campaign.
Only time will tell who is lying and who is not.

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#27 zippsy

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 11:06 PM

My sources say that Lee Harvey Oswald was the marksman. He was standing on the grassy knoll behind the wheelhouse when he took the shot. I have proof of it to but I can't share it here yet. Keep an eye on the mainstream press though. :rolleyes:

#28 Drew

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 11:24 PM

Michael, constructive is not a word I'd use for your 2 posts. :rolleyes: Although I'm also not sure how constructive this discussion is except to examine the facts at hand.

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#29 cor

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 03:55 AM

Well if it was attempted murder, then they should prosecute the Japanese in a court of law. Turn over evidence and have the Australians go after them.
What benefit would killing Watson have? Absolutely none unless they really wanted a martyr on their hands and a PR nightmare. Did they think the little fledglings would disperse once Watson was dead? Bewildering!

It would not be unheard of for people who's lively hoods or culture are threatened by someone from another culture to behave irrational.

Going with the expert marksman theory further, Watson's kevlar was showing, since there was no penetration of his outer jacket. Any marksman would know that his round would less effective against kevlar.

I think the whole marksman theory is flawed. It all assumes the person was actually aiming where it impacted. If it was a bullet, it could have hit anywhere. Who knows where the shooter was aiming.

And why one shot only? If they wanted to really kill him, they'd take as many as they needed to.

Maybe because they were so shocked it hit Watson and not the zodiac 50 yards to the left that they dropped the gun in terror.

I personally think Watson is doing a great job because he is doing everything in his power short of sending in a torpedo to stop the whalers in their tracks. He's risking life and limb for the cause he believes in. A cause most of us believe in. Maybe we don't like his methods, but he's getting results. It doesnt matter who or if a gun was fired. He's the underdog and has already won that battle. Little guy was shot by giant whale butchering monsters. He's milking it for all its worth, as he should. Im seeing worse things every day in the presidential campaigns.

When Julie was working for Greenpeace in their HQ in Amsterdam we saw these guys that go out on boats regularly. They are a little crazy. But it takes a little crazy to do what they do.

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#30 Drew

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:24 AM

It would not be unheard of for people who's lively hoods or culture are threatened by someone from another culture to behave irrational.
I think the whole marksman theory is flawed. It all assumes the person was actually aiming where it impacted. If it was a bullet, it could have hit anywhere. Who knows where the shooter was aiming.
Maybe because they were so shocked it hit Watson and not the zodiac 50 yards to the left that they dropped the gun in terror.

Sure, but it also goes both ways. Look at the Taiji fishermen using oars to repel the protesters, a pretty violent reaction to protect their livelihood. I can almost see if the acid attacks caused one of the JCG to draw his weapon in anger and fire. However, assuming they are not merely rent-a-cops but trained guys, your scenario is also flawed. Obviously this is all conjecture. That's why I say let SS go forward with criminal charges if they have proof. I'll admit my own experiences in the SS organization tells me to doubt the veracity of such a claim. PR machines are amazing in the amount of BS they spew. Many NGOs like to exaggerate numbers to make a point etc. It's the only way to get the attention of the general public.

I personally think Watson is doing a great job because he is doing everything in his power short of sending in a torpedo to stop the whalers in their tracks. He's risking life and limb for the cause he believes in. A cause most of us believe in. Maybe we don't like his methods, but he's getting results. It doesnt matter who or if a gun was fired. He's the underdog and has already won that battle. Little guy was shot by giant whale butchering monsters. He's milking it for all its worth, as he should. Im seeing worse things every day in the presidential campaigns.

I admire his passion as well. But no less passionate are the Green Peace group who do not engage in this sort of violent behavior. That is something that is very much debateable. The extent of which his campaign is working vs passive methods of actual diplomacy of governments working through the IWC and GreenPeace and other NGOs. The only effect I can see is the sensationalized publicity in the western world and disrupting one boat from hunting (which endangering lives on both sides) and breaking(not bending) the law by boarding other vessels, acid bottle throwing, prop fouling etc). The publicity is great for his money raising ability and ego, but the backlash to that is it serves the nationalists in Japan who use it to garner support for the whaling industry in Japan, the reverse of what is needed. I use to think his methods were effective because I wanted them to be. However, pulling my emotions aside and looking at the track record, it's not. How effective were these tactics in Norway in the 90s? Have the Norwegians stopped whaling? No, instead they have a warrant for his arrest(one of the big reasons he's no longer in the EU much) and still take over 500 minkes a year..
Nor are the Japanese really the victims they claim to be. They use a sham loophole to continue to support an industry that is failed. Nobody likes the guy who gets away on a technicality, like O.J. for instance :rolleyes:. That's why the IWC meeting in London over the weekend went again to resolve this issue. In fact several conflicting reports on how the meeting went have surfaced. One from the Independent states that there was consensus to allow limited whaling and shelf the phony JARPA permits. Of course Australia is also touting that they won support for whale conservation.
I believe Hogarth and others are doing their best to control the whaling situation. It's not easy when big money and national pride is involved.

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#31 zippsy

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:34 AM

Hey Drew. My second post was trying to be humorous but was intended to highlight the absurdity of some of the reasoning on this thread. The first post was a little more pointed but I'd be happy to delete it. It did express my true opinion of the matter though. This kind of PR gets boring after a while and it doesn't help stop whaling. If this was effective, there would have been peace in the Middle East decades ago.

#32 pakman

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 07:43 AM

Look zippsy, it's the smoking gun... and it wasn't from the grassy knoll... it was from the book depository of the Nisshin Maru... :rolleyes:

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#33 scorpio_fish

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 09:05 AM

I personally think Watson is doing a great job because he is doing everything in his power short of sending in a torpedo to stop the whalers in their tracks. He's risking life and limb for the cause he believes in. A cause most of us believe in. Maybe we don't like his methods, but he's getting results.

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I agree with Drew on this one. I'm sorry, I don't believe in his methods at all, even though I believe in the cause.

Confrontation to violence is OK if it's for a cause we believe in or because he believes in it? Hardly the rationale I support. If everyone who believed so strongly about something used these methods, it would a very dysfunctional world.

When the Eco-green supporters start acid bombing the CO2 spewing dive yachts and yanking out moorings, it will be OK because they believe so strongly that sport diving should be abolished in order to reduce CO2 emissions?
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#34 cor

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 09:44 AM

I dont believe in his methods either, or any violence for that matter, but he's out there. whether we like it or not. I hope his crazy antics doesnt get him or someone else hurt, but now that there is an incident, I think he's doing a great job milking it as much as possible. I dont have a problem with that specifically. I do hope he comes to his senses about his methods after this incident, but somehow I doubt it.

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#35 Drew

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:32 AM

I agree with Drew on this one.

Wow George, you actually agree with me for one thing... it isn't so hard is it? :rolleyes:

If everyone who believed so strongly about something used these methods, it would a very dysfunctional world.

Well it is kinda dysfunctional in many parts of the world. :D

When the Eco-green supporters start acid bombing the CO2 spewing dive yachts and yanking out moorings, it will be OK because they believe so strongly that sport diving should be abolished in order to reduce CO2 emissions?


Don't they first have to get the sport fishermen first with their 500hp 5mpg engines? Or the Hummer dealerships?

I do hope he comes to his senses about his methods after this incident, but somehow I doubt it.

Cor, he lives in an alternate reality. But his passion is his charisma, which is why many people follow him.

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#36 Paul Kay

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 12:09 PM

If everyone who believed so strongly about something used these methods, it would a very dysfunctional world.


Iraq, Afganistan...........
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#37 scorpio_fish

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 12:22 PM

Iraq, Afganistan...........


Iraq, bombing of abortion clinics, military recruiting centers and animal research labs, or the most recent torching of large new homes.

These tactics raise awareness and are created by people with a great passion for something, but they don't persuade us less passionate folks.
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#38 james

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 01:47 PM

OK that's enough guys. If we tried to list everywhere where people are using violence to further their beliefs it will be a long list.

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#39 echeng

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:41 PM

Look zippsy, it's the smoking gun... and it wasn't from the grassy knoll... it was from the book depository of the Nisshin Maru... :rolleyes:

You and zippsy are free not to comment on this thread. If you can't be constructive, please stay quiet.
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#40 Paul Kay

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 12:06 AM

Whatever anyone on this thread thinks of SS's tactics and the reactions to these, they have succeeded in their aims well and truly. They have raised the profile of the topic of whaling and have raised the profile of this highly emotive subject and got people talking about it. This thread is absolute evidence of that!

What baffles me about the whole subject of current whaling is that economically it MUST be damaging in overall terms. Whenever I talk to anyone at all interested in cetaceans (a surprisingly large number of people) the response is always the same - they tend to operate a bias in favour of buying goods sourced from non-whaling countries whenever they are able to do so (myself included). SS's actions will IMHO, raise the whaling debate in parts of the media and whatever people think of their actions I would say that the knock on effect of this raised profile has to be negative economically on Japan and other whaling nations.

Sorry to have been facetious with my last post - violent intervention is simply a fact of human nature (see history) and my cynicism got the better of me!
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