20 replies to this topic

[BottomTime]

Ladies & Gents,

Today I received confirmation that my swanky new Subal ND30 housing has finally shipped, marking the end of my velvia days.
Over the years, I've grown comfortable shooting manual strobe exposure and given that few strobes work natively with Nikon's i-TTL system, I'm considering completely abandoning TTL and just shooting manual everything. Generally I'm OK with this solution as time isn't often a factor with most macro subjects, but there are times when focusing on the moment is king and before I decide to abandon the speed and simplicity of TTL, I'd like to have a better understanding or what my options are.
As I understand it there are 2 i-TTL converters that may potentially work with my system (2 YS-110's); the Sea&Sea TTL converter and the HeinrichsWeikamp.
From what I've read so far, the HeinrichsWeikamp won't work (in i-TTL mode) with the Nikon D300-YS-110 combination due to the timing of the D300 being faster than the strobes (8ms vs 51ms). Is my understanding correct?
It looks like I can use the Sea&Sea, but if I understand correctly, it requires me to change one of the bulkheads on my new housing. What I don't understand is if there is a timing issue that I inferred from HeinrichsWeikamp website, then how is the Sea&Sea converter giving me i-TTL control of my YS-110's?
Are there any other options that I should know about other than buying new strobes?

Cheers,

Mike

[Lionfish43]

Welcome to the Dark Ages of underwater flash photography. I don't have any good answers for you because I've been looking for a solution myself. According to the Heinrichs site http://heinrichsweik...tz/en/index.htm your strobe will only work in manual mode. I'm not sure about the Sea&Sea. Underwater strobe technology is so far behind the capabilities of their topside counterparts it's not even funny.

I just wish some manufacturer would come out with a strobe that is i-TTL (or e-TTL) compatable that doesn't cost $2500. they would corner the market. They all want to foist their gimmicky "solution" on us that either requires you to buy their housing or some other gizmo that may or may not work according to the phase of the moon or the whim of the gods.

[craig]

I have recently taken notice of the Quantum QNexus, a plugin controller for Quantum flash products that makes the system compatible with both Canon and Nikon wireless strobe control protocols. These protocols support complicated multistrobe setups and full digital TTL capability and are infrared triggered.

It amazes me that underwater strobe products are so medievally dumb. It is now possible with off-the-shelf components to make an underwater strobe that is both Nikon- and Canon-compatible and fiber triggered. Such a system could have localized strobe control (in fact, would require it). I wish strobe manufacturers would try harder. It's time to support modern TTL protocols and do away with fragile sync cords like our land photographer brothers already have.

[dhaas]

Mike,

Yes, if you want digital iTTL with your Sea and Sea strobes you're going to have to go one of the ways mentioned by Larry. If you had Ikelite DS125 strobes you could use their Nik V style connector to iTTL adapter cord and then single or dual configuration for TTL and manual control.

I would argue all day with Craig about Fiber Optic and underwater use with modern iTTL and eTTL use. It just isn't there yet.....And as far as hard wired synch cords I still am unable to see how so many people trash them as frequently as some say.

Finally, for surface shooting many modern dSLR shooters still hard wire an off camera flash or flashes.....RF tripped TTL isn't 100% perfect even through air and Nikon or Canon's solutions. Many shoot MANUAL off camera flashes tripped with Pocket Wizards. Talk about archaic.....But a new device just announced called the Radiopopper might get off camera flashes into digital TTL mode more reliably.

For a peek, go to www.flashflavor.com one of my favorite sites for lighting inspiration. And trying to migrate the techniques to underwater use

YMMV

dhaas

[craig]

You won't get an argument from me regarding fiber optic cords and iTTL/eTTL because it is a mess. There's no reason it should be and with Nikon CLS or the Canon equivalent it wouldn't be. Both use IR signalling already and both are proven to work through fiber and underwater. It's not what is, it's what could be and should be.

As for sync cords, I find it difficult to point to anyone who doesn't recognize that they are a greater source of trouble than anything else. Not only do they flood easily, but when they do they are electrically connected to the cameras and strobes and can wreak all sorts of havoc as a result. The only persistent problems I've ever had have been with sync cords and I've witnessed it countless times. Why are people so resistant to improvements that would make our rigs more trouble-free?

Yes, many topside shooters hardwire strobes because it's cheap and easy. RF is costly and IR is new. TTL works increasingly poorly as you complicate the configuration, just as TTL works poorly for UW wide angle at times. Arguing those points ignores the entire point of why IR signaling would be a meaningful improvement underwater.

The fact that UW TTL is a mess today isn't an argument for why it should continue to be.

[ce4jesus]

I realize this might seem a bit contrary, and maybe out of my ignorance, but why aren't the housing manufacturers building their housings with the capability to use fiber optics. I always read posts that put the emphasis on the strobe makers. Inon has built an excellent system with its own ttl that produces wonderful exposures underwater for a multitude of digicams and some DSLRs whose housing permits the camera's internal flash to be raised. You can understand why Ikelite and Sea&Sea want to lock their housings into use with their own strobes but Subal? You'd think it would be in their interest to allow as many strobes as possible without a converter. My 2 cents :?)

[craig]

A few are, but I think the answer is that most want to make the housing smaller even though bouyancy is the real limiter. I believe people are reluctant to change in the industry. I think the Seatool popup flash and diffuser look pretty innovative.

Inon has shown the ability to produce a bulkhead adapter to fiber optic (except it only does manual). Such a product could easily be integrated into housings as an alternative to a popup flash. I believe that if fiber connections were as ubiquitous as wired ones then no one would want a wired sync cord at all.

[BottomTime]

So.... it looks like it's not to be!

I'm not sure that I'm glad or sad that underwater lighting hasn't progressed very far since I first bought my F90 and put it in a housing. It means that the learning curve isn't going to be that steep, but it also means that all the technology that's out there is pretty much unavailable underwater.

After spending all day researching, it looks like I found the answers I was looking for. The Sea&Sea converter will work with my setup and doesn't require a bulkhead replacement, but in spite of this I think I'm going to stick with manual for now. We'll see how the well manual exposure and macro work for me before I decide to buy the converter.

Cheers,

Mike

[photovan]

.....
but in spite of this I think I'm going to stick with manual for now

.....

Mike, if you've been shooting film you'll be OK while you get up to speed with the new system... while spot-on is always best, you've a lot a fair bit of exposure latitude in RAW.

[Andy Davies]

I use a housed SB800 in a Seacam housing with my D200. Works well for macro and you can control exposure compensation of the flash and the camera.

Andy

[bruceterrill]

Hi Guys,
I have a Nexus housed Nikon D70S. I checked out if the camera's flash could be deployed while in the housing. It is a tight fit, but works perfectly; 100%.
I then contacted the local Inon rep and sourced a couple of the new Inon 'fibre optic windows'. Expensive little buggars when purchased in Oz! Anyway, I contacted a mate at a local engineering firm and got hold of the correct drill and tap (funny size from memory) and had him install the 'windows' into my housing.
The result is very professional, it's been in the water quite a few times without leaking, and the system works flawlessly with borrowed strobes.
I just need to save up for a couple of Inon strobes for myself...
But that is it in a nutshell; Nikon i-TTL via fibre optics and Inon's proprietary S-TTL.
I believe that Phil Rudin (Tropical1) is using a similar system with his Olympus cameras...
HTH,
Bruce...

BTW, if you try this and buggar-up your housing, you didn't hear it from me...

Edited by bruceterrill, 02 April 2008 - 02:46 AM.

[Canuck]

I then contacted the local Inon rep and sourced a couple of the new Inon 'fibre optic windows'. Expensive little buggars when purchased in Oz! Anyway, I contacted a mate at a local engineering firm and got hold of the correct drill and tap (funny size from memory) and had him install the 'windows' into my housing.
The result is very professional, it's been in the water quite a few times without leaking, and the system works flawlessly with borrowed strobes.

Hi Bruce. I am intrigued by this. I would like to do something similar with a Subal housing. Can you send me a link to the Inon Windows? Also, could you post a few macro shots of what they look like installed in your housing? I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[dhaas]

Amigos,

I've seen some pretty good TTL results from pushing your TTL flash through a fiber optic cable to INON's S-TTL. I'm not sure of multiple in housing pop up flashes and any resultant problems, so it seems like it works (Seatool, and my buddy Phil Rudin's Olympus housing usages .) Maybe as Craig states all housed systems will go this way eventually.

But I also will stack any of my thousands, no make that 10,000 + exposures I've shot with Canon eTTL2 in Ikelite housings and DS series digital substrobes with TTL accuracy. Mkaing shooting much faster and easier especially when things are happening too fast to even think about manually adjusting settings.

Ikelite housing and strobe circuity work fine in wide angle or macro as long as you understand parameters based on ISO, f-stop and strobe to subject distance.

For other brand housings Ikelite developed their Nikon iTTL cord adapter and Aquatica and Subal friends I know have used it to shoot iTTL flash successfully, too.

Maybe I am special in over 30,000 clicks underwater the past few years I haven't bent, broken or had a cord fail. I don't wrap them super tight or bend them excessively but I also don't baby them. I'll have to ponder if I do anything different than shooters I've observed.....

Either way, fiber optic may get developed for underwater use as Craig and others state. Personally, I wish RF would work underwater! But then we'd need multiple channels to avoid tripping all over each other

YMMV

dhaas

[craig]

I don't believe Subal leaves enough room for the popup flash to engage and work. Nexus does because they use a very large hotshoe connector so they always have extra airspace.

My understanding is that the Nexus fiber connection is sensitive to the light getting into the fiber so that TTL will be accurate.

[Vettediver]

Craig:

I have been reading these posts with interest as I just purchased a Nikon D3oo to replace my D70. I already own Inon 240 strobes. Not having purchased a housing for the D300 yet, would you recommend driving the strobes with fibre optics or conventional electric strobe cords? I would prefer to utilize TTL for macro if possible.

Vettediver

[rumblefish]

Welcome to the Dark Ages of underwater flash photography. I don't have any good answers for you because I've been looking for a solution myself. According to the Heinrichs site http://heinrichsweik...tz/en/index.htm your strobe will only work in manual mode. I'm not sure about the Sea&Sea. Underwater strobe technology is so far behind the capabilities of their topside counterparts it's not even funny.

I just wish some manufacturer would come out with a strobe that is i-TTL (or e-TTL) compatable that doesn't cost $2500. they would corner the market. They all want to foist their gimmicky "solution" on us that either requires you to buy their housing or some other gizmo that may or may not work according to the phase of the moon or the whim of the gods.

[craig]

I don't have any personal experience with iTTL over fiber. It is supposed to work with Nexus and I highly recommend Nexus housings for macro anyway due to their great multiport. If I were in your position I'd strongly consider it.

[tdpriest]

I used the Nexus fibre-optic (obviously, it's the European version with that spelling) system with Inon Z-240 strobes on my last trip. It seemed pretty fool-proof in both TTL and manual modes, but you need a PhD in Inon-ology to work out the strobe settings, and you have to like the Inon strobes...

The "pop up the internal flash for camera-controlled TTL" makes reflection in the port a problem: not when the external strobes fire at macro subjects, as the Nikon flash is rapidly quenched, but when shooting into dark water or on manual settings. I have had to make a couple of baffles that slide over my fisheye lens to occlude the gap at the rear of my dome ports. It isn't a problem with a 12-24mm.

It's also a pain if the external strobes are turned off to shoot ambient light.

A couple of results from Nexus/Inon TTL:





Tim

B)

[EspenRekdal]

I used the Nexus fibre-optic (obviously, it's the European version with that spelling) system with Inon Z-240 strobes on my last trip. It seemed pretty fool-proof in both TTL and manual modes, but you need a PhD in Inon-ology to work out the strobe settings, and you have to like the Inon strobes...

The "pop up the internal flash for camera-controlled TTL" makes reflection in the port a problem: not when the external strobes fire at macro subjects, as the Nikon flash is rapidly quenched, but when shooting into dark water or on manual settings. I have had to make a couple of baffles that slide over my fisheye lens to occlude the gap at the rear of my dome ports. It isn't a problem with a 12-24mm.

It's also a pain if the external strobes are turned off to shoot ambient light.

A couple of results from Nexus/Inon TTL:

Tim

B)

I`d like to add to that. I have had similar problems with reflections in the port but they have been due to light getting inn through the back of the housing (veiwing window) or the top window. This happens when I use a fisheye port and has happened with or without strobes.

E.

[bruceterrill]

Hi Bruce. I am intrigued by this. I would like to do something similar with a Subal housing. Can you send me a link to the Inon Windows? Also, could you post a few macro shots of what they look like installed in your housing? I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Ask and you shall receive...

HTH,
Bruce...

Sorry guys,
One of the pics is out of focus...

Edited by bruceterrill, 03 April 2008 - 07:41 PM.