12 replies to this topic

[khaled.alsibai]

Hi guys

i am about to buy a video camera for my underwater videography, i am so confused witch cam i buy, i guess the HDR-SR12E is more featured but its a hard disk and im not sure its gonna give me the same quality as the tape camera, besides im afraid the hard disk to crash!

http://www.sony-mea....site=hp_en_ME_i

http://www.sony-mea....site=hp_en_ME_i

so what do you think and witch camera i should go for?

thank you

[wagsy]

The AVCHD codec is even more compressed than 25mbps HDV.
Go for a normal HDV 25mbps mpeg2 1440/1080 tape camera if you can.

[reefnet]

The AVCHD codec is even more compressed than 25mbps HDV.
Go for a normal HDV 25mbps mpeg2 1440/1080 tape camera if you can.

Not so fast...

Although the SR12 runs the AVCHD codec at 16 Mbps, it's a higher-efficiency codec than HDV. The SR12 is one of a few new cameras that bring AVCHD up to par with (or better than!) HDV in terms of visual quality. Furthermore, the SR12 uses a new sensor with far better noise reduction characteristics in low light.

The camcorderinfo.com review of the SR12 actually puts it on a pedestal above the HC9. Specifically, they say:

"[The SR12] is undoubtedly the sensor/processor package to own if you’re a Sony fan. The low light performance is excellent – far superior in noise reduction to the Sony HDR-HC9, its HDV cousin."

I tend to trust their reviews, so it would seem that the SR12 is definitely worth considering.

Kris

[Drew]

Well AVCHD at 16mbps is more efficient but the encoding suffers when motion is high, like on a busy reef scene or surface sea shots where even HDV breaks down.
With AVCHD, there is still a need to convert to a 3rd codec to edit because of the MPEG4 compression. HDV needs to be done that way too for best results.
Further to hard disk crashes is backing up. Tape acts as a natural archive whereas AVCHD will always be dependent on drives. Something else to consider.

[reefnet]

Well AVCHD at 16mbps is more efficient but the encoding suffers when motion is high, like on a busy reef scene or surface sea shots where even HDV breaks down.

This is a common complaint and may be a serious consideration. However, I've yet to see direct comparison footage of the same scene with both codecs. Do you know of any such sample footage? Have you observed the difference yourself? I wonder at what level of movement the artifacting begins to manifest itself compared to HDV. And what does it look like compared to HDV artifacting.

Unless the codec compresses each frame individually (like DV), this problem will always exist to some extent. Down with long-GOP compression!!

With AVCHD, there is still a need to convert to a 3rd codec to edit because of the MPEG4 compression. HDV needs to be done that way too for best results.

Hmm...It was my understanding that Vegas Pro 8.0 will edit AVCHD (and even output back to camera) natively. Could be wrong.

That said, like HDV there are good reasons you might still want to use an intermediate codec.

Further to hard disk crashes is backing up. Tape acts as a natural archive whereas AVCHD will always be dependent on drives. Something else to consider.

A hard disk crash is no different from a tape transport system malfunction/defect. Both leave the camera useless. Actually, one question I have for Sony is whether in the event of HD failure you can still record video to the flash card. If so, that's a huge benefit.

Backups are definitely a concern. I would have said it was a deal-breaker a year ago, but I just set up two 250GB 2.5" external drives for $110 each and always travel with my laptop, so backing up (redundantly, no less) is no longer such a problem. Come to think of it, having multiple copies of the footage across different bags would give me much more peace of mind than a precious box of original tapes.

Certainly lots to consider...

Kris

[soon_cougar]

Hi all!! actually am about to buy da SR12 too... (my first camcorder ), n hv been doing lots of "research" around.... according to camcorderinfo.com, it looks like a pretty good camcorder for beginner... but what i worried its the limitation in control of WB using ikelite housing.....

hope to get more reply here about this 2 camcorder....

cheers!!

[reefnet]

With the SR12 at least, all of the manual camera controls are concentrated in the "CAM CTL" dial on the lower left of the camera. This is a rotary/push knob...as long as a housing can both turn and push this knob, then you have full manual control including white balance (with exception of shutter speed, for no good reason!!).

I would think the housing manufacturers would find this a relief compared to multiple buttons and knobs, or worse having to fiddle with touch-screen controls as on the HC series.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the L&M Bluefin for the SR12 handles the controls.

Kris

[spaceflight]

Hi all!! actually am about to buy da SR12 too... (my first camcorder ), n hv been doing lots of "research" around.... according to camcorderinfo.com, it looks like a pretty good camcorder for beginner... but what i worried its the limitation in control of WB using ikelite housing.....

hope to get more reply here about this 2 camcorder....

The Ikelite does have access to white balance, via the LCD screen. From Ikelite specs..."Controls for the LCD Screen Touch Pad provide full access to setting white balance and white balance shift."

I would think the housing manufacturers would find this a relief compared to multiple buttons and knobs, or worse having to fiddle with touch-screen controls as on the HC series.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the L&M Bluefin for the SR12 handles the controls.

The roller gives you Focus, Exposure, AE Shift and White Balance Shift

I imagine the Bluefin SR12 will access the white balance control, as well as others, via the LCD screen also. This is how the current HC7 and HC9 models are.

[reefnet]

I imagine the Bluefin SR12 will access the white balance control, as well as others, via the LCD screen also. This is how the current HC7 and HC9 models are.

I kind of suspect that too. It would be a shame, though, since that means having to keep the LCD open continuously. The batteries on these cams are wimpy enough as it is. I'd much rather have a simple knob on the control dial than the LCD interface...after all, that was primarily a kludge to deal with the HC's which only allow access to WB from the LCD.

We shall see pretty soon how they are doing it.

Kris

EDIT: Darn, I just saw the word "SHIFT" in "White Balance Shift"...shoot, I thought you could do a full WB with the control dial. Alas, Sony has made another bonehead design mistake.

Edited by reefnet, 21 April 2008 - 01:29 PM.

[Gamehunter]

Well I already have the SR12 and I have been happy with it so far. I like the 10mp stills that it takes and I like the 120gb HD on board. I also have a 8gb memory stick for the stills, but it can also be used for video. I have not received my housing yet but it is on order with L&M along with the Sunray 2000's.It is suppose to be ready the beginning of June. I have seen Equinox's housing for this camera and wasn't impressed with their first turnout, I'm sure they will correct their problems though. I have not seen the Ikelite housing but my first housing was an Ikelite and I got terrible reflection from the port, it really needs a port shade on it. They also seem to have put the camera up closer to the front hopefully eliminating the reflection. I'm glad to see that they added white balance controls to their housing, unlike Equinox's.

[soon_cougar]

From the SR12 user manual, we can control the WB from the CAM CTL knob on the front part of the cam, but from the picture of the housing from ikelite website, they do not have a button to operate on this knob... so we gotta adjust it from the touch screen as spaceflight mentioned... what to do, since ikelite is the only housing that fits on my real tight budget...

Gamehunter, great to hear you are getting the housing from L&M with their video lights, do post some video here when your rig is ready to go U/W.... happy shooting!!!

cheers!!

Edited by soon_cougar, 22 April 2008 - 06:59 AM.

[Hawkfish]

Just a correction on the stills, I think they were originally reported at 10mp but are actually closer to 5mp. That being said people who have used it have posted that they are very happy with the quality of the stills.

[maelstrom]

I have the HC-7 L&M housing with the control knob for WB shifting, But that is not setting the WB, just shifting it. How do you know what to shift to?? It also has the "one push" WB, which seems more like what you should be doing, but that involves menus and sub menus. What do you do with the WB "shift"??

Hal