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Pros and D60s - coincidence?


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#1 wetpixel

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Posted 22 May 2003 - 09:41 PM

You know, every one of the uw photo pros I hang out with (not that there are that many... :lol: ) shoot Canon digital SLRs underwater, even if they used to shoot Nikon film bodies.

I know that there are many pros that shoot D100 as well, but ... I guess they are just the ones I don't know! :D

Or, maybe I'm confusing observation with causation. I mean, I was an early adopter, and maybe I influenced a lot of them just as they were getting into digital...

anyway. just a strange observation that hopped into my mind just now.

and actually... I don't even know many people with D100s. The land shooters I know tend to be D60/10D owners as well.
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#2 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 12:06 AM

It is an interesting point. One thing that often sways UW photographers when buying cameras is what housing options are open to them. In the (south east) UK the market is dominated by Subal - and many photographers I know who are thinking about digital are only considering cameras that can be Suballed - which until recently was only the D100.

Ironically I was able to afford my D100 by trading in an EOS 35mm that I had recently won in a photo comp!

Oh and congrats Eric on EPIC win!

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#3 Kasey

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 03:22 AM

You were an "early adopter" and so were they. Eighteen months ago the D60 in UK Germany was the only dSLR/housing combo on the market as far as I know. Except, maybe, for the D1/Seacam at 3X the cost.

The land issue may be a secondary one, because there are supposedly similar numbers of canon and nikon dSLRs in the marketplace. It will be an interesting race between these manufacturers, as they seem to be going in very different directions on the sensor size issue. I would think that pros favor canon's full frame approach over having to buy a new arsenal of wide angle and standard lenses, but it appears that it will take quite some time to refine this technology and make it cost effective. It also means that the consumer canons probably will never have the advantage of ultra-wide (weitwinkel) digital lenses, putting them functionally behind the nikon mount once the DX lenses start to appear. Perhaps their hope is that the cost of FF comes down enough in the near term to put into a sub $2000 camera. How awesome would that be!


Hope not to start a brand war here - FWIW I wish my D100 had the low noise and smooth blues of the canon, and FF sensors are obviously the ideal way to go barring the technological impediments.

I can't wait to see the D2 - that should make it really interesting. I hope it announces alongside a DX fisheye!!!

The great thing about digital is that the cost savings (over film) justify a new camera every 12-18months... But probably not a system change
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#4 scorpio_fish

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 04:55 AM

Are you going to make me get a can of whup ass? Just kidding.

Scattershots:

You know, every one of the uw photo pros I hang out with (not that there are that many...  ) shoot Canon digital SLRs underwater, even if they used to shoot Nikon film bodies.



You need to get out more. :lol:

Canon has gained much market share in the pro ranks. Of course when you start at 0%, it's much easier to gain share. :D

Maybe, while the rest of us were waiting for a D100 housing, pro's who wanted digital bought Canons. While Nikon devotees were twiddling their thumbs, Watt was generating lots of impressive galleries. Sure, Seacam had a D1X housing, but that's another story.

While Canon and Nikon played leap frog, Canon leap frogged Nikon by offering a less than $5k D30. Heck, I was 7th on a waiting list, but didn't get a camera until the beginning of September, housing arrived at the end of March.

It will be an interesting race between these manufacturers, as they seem to be going in very different directions on the sensor size issue. I would think that pros favor canon's full frame approach over having to buy a new arsenal of wide angle and standard lenses, but it appears that it will take quite some time to refine this technology and make it cost effective. It also means that the consumer canons probably will never have the advantage of ultra-wide (weitwinkel) digital lenses, putting them functionally behind the nikon mount once the DX lenses start to appear. Perhaps their hope is that the cost of FF comes down enough in the near term to put into a sub $2000 camera. How awesome would that be!



This is a very astute observation. I find the full frame issue a bit overhyped. Once the 12-24mm DX lens is available, the full frame advantage gets diluted a great deal. It's the wide angle range that is lacking. If Nikon doesn't make another DX lens, you are still covered from 18mm on up with existing lenses. The argument against this logic is that the "on up" lenses don't cover the focal lengths you want, especially in the medium zoom range.

I think one obstacle to Nikon and the full frame issue is that they really need to abandon the CCD chip, as Kodak has done. Easier said than done. Canon has the advantage of in house CMOS chip production. Regardless, full frame has a tremendous cost disadvantage, and the chip remains the most expensive component of the camera.

The jury is still out as to how the pro's will continue to react. The D2 may answer that. It's definitely not a FF sensor, but until it comes out, Canon is definitely getting converts for top side shooting and new 35mm shooters.

Nikon, (motto, "We will tell you want you want") has lost market share to Canon because of a superior line up of newer professional lenses. Nikon is playing catch up. Many years ago when Canon decided they wanted to dominate the pro ranks, they switched lens mounts. Nikonians snickered because they could use all that wonderful old glass they owned. The table has turned. Canon has consistently introduced wonderful new glass at a rate far above that of Nikon. (Twenty years ago, the saying was "It's not a camera, it's a Nikon". Nikon has lost some of that brand edge.)

As to the "which is better" arguments, I don't subscribe to either one's superiority. It's like, which is better, a Ford or Chevy truck (Ford sucks, Chevy rules!).

I'm not that loyal, but I can't ever switch. My mind is too feeble to learn a whole bunch of new abbreviations. I think I've got the whole AI, AF-D, AF-S, IF, ED, VR thing figured out. I can't be trying to decipher L, IS, USM, EOS, MSNBC, etc. I'm just a DOS guy living in a Windows world.

One last scattershot. It doesn't really matter that much, does it? I could tell you a Jim Watt story told to me by someone else to prove it. But, we wouldn't have as much to talk about.
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#5 craig

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 06:55 AM

I think one obstacle to Nikon and the full frame issue is that they really need to abandon the CCD chip, as Kodak has done. Easier said than done. Canon has the advantage of in house CMOS chip production. Regardless, full frame has a tremendous cost disadvantage, and the chip remains the most expensive component of the camera.


If you throw in Fuji (and even Foveon), you see that Nikon is facing competition on all fronts that develop their own imagers. At first it would seem that Nikon has a big disadvantage, but the right way to look at this is that the market leader enjoys the benefit of all the industry's expertise that is not Canon, Fuji or Foveon. Just because a company doesn't do parts of its engineering in-house does not mean it has no influence or expertise and it doesn't mean they're at a disadvantage. Look at Dell for example. Of the big three bodies, Nikon may be the weakest but it's a close contest. The improvements made Canon and Fuji will drive Nikon to stay competitive and that will benefit us all. Until the housing momentum swings away from Nikon the market is theirs to lose.

Maybe, while the rest of us were waiting for a D100 housing, pro's who wanted digital bought Canons.



I think this hits the nail on the head. For a while the option was Canon or Seacam/D1. That would account for the early showing for Canon adoption. You don't use that many lenses underwater after all. If it were compelling, I'd buy a Canon, lenses and a housing and ignore my above water investment.

Doug Perrin is rumored to have switched to digital. Anyone know what he's using? He used to use Seacam for film, so I'd expect he's using a D1x.
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#6 ehanauer

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 08:25 AM

If I were starting today, it would be difficult choice. Because I had a slew of Nikon lenses, there was never any doubt when switching to digital.

Nikon vs. Canon discussions are as pointless as PC vs. Mac. Both are quality products. It's not the gear, but the person who pushes the button that makes the image. You pays your money and makes your choice.

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#7 wetpixel

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 11:34 AM

Doug Perrin is rumored to have switched to digital. Anyone know what he's using? He used to use Seacam for film, so I'd expect he's using a D1x.

Doug Perrine shoots with a D60 and a 1Ds (but only the D60 underwater). He doesn't get involved in online discussions like this, even though I've tried to get him to make a statement publicly. :lol:

Nikon vs. Canon discussions are as pointless as PC vs. Mac. Both are quality products. It's not the gear, but the person who pushes the button that makes the image. You pays your money and makes your choice.


I don't think we are having a Nikon vs. Canon discussion here. We're just making some observations...

Canon reps I've heard speak say that they created the DSLR market with the D30 and D60, and then Nikon took it from them with the D100 because Canon was unable to keep up production numbers. So I know that there are a *ton* of D100s out there. But I guess Canon did good things by releasing the first "affordable" model so pros could get into it without really feeling like they were breaking the bank.
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#8 craig

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 11:57 AM

Of course, some would say the first "affordable" dSLR was the D1. I'm among those since I bought one. If it had been a Canon D1 I might already have my 1Ds today. My film SLR was Canon, so I switched the other way.

Interesting to know that Doug is using the D60.
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#9 wetpixel

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 03:15 PM

Craig - I guess I meant "affordable" dSLR with "affordable" housing. :lol:

--

A short list of pros I know who are shooting the D60 include:

Jim Watt, Douglas Seifert, Doug Perrine, David Fleetham, Masa Ushioda, and Andy Sallmon (although he plans to eventually go Nikon or Fuji because he shoots Nikon). Jim and Anna Abernethy also shoot with a D60.

Watt told me he recommended the D60 to Brian Skerry and Norbert Wu as well, but I don't know if they are actually using them.

Oh yes! I thought of a D100 shooter I've met. Charles Hood shoots with a D100. :D One of his digital shots or a Great Hammerhead (taken on the same trip I went on) is supposed to appear on the cover of Dive Magazine's upcoming special issue on sharks.
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#10 craig

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 03:47 PM

I thought you were talking land. There's no doubt that the Seacam/D1x was in the super deluxe price range but it was also way too late. If they hadn't been so late I bet they would have sold more, but by the time Seacam made the D1x housing available the D30/D60/UK was being sold and dived and reviewed on the internet by guess who? You just knew there would be better choices than the $12K+ Seacam setup.

I think you're right about land, too. I just wanted to point out that when the D1 came out it was hailed as a breakthrough product that serious prosumers could afford (really serious). It cut by 2/3 the going price of that caliber of dSLR. Arguably the D30 cut the price of the D1 by a similar amount, but it did so using a different class of body and a CMOS sensor that was unproven at the time.
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#11 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 01:42 AM

I saw Subal's D60 housing for the first time yesterday. Yum yum. Made me think about becoming a Canon user for millisecond! But I'm afraid I ain't got the cash to swap!

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#12 wetpixel

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 08:39 AM

But I'm afraid I ain't got the cash to swap!

I don't think I've ever seen a Brit use "ain't" before. hehehe. :lol:
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#13 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 04:19 AM

Doggone it!

I'm afraid an upbringing on "The A-Team" and "Knightrider" take their toll. I shall endeavour to choose more appropriate vocab in future posts!

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#14 james

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 05:21 AM

Hi Guys,

IMO, the D30 was the first "affordable" digital SLR camera - I think it was out something like 18 months before the Nikon D100 - helping Canon gain considerable market share. Unfortunatly for Canonthey could not produce the machine to meet demand or they could have stomped Nikon even worse.

Nevertheless, the UK-Germany housing for the D30 was available over a year ahead of any "reasonable" offering for a Nikon setup. I think the fact that the UW "world" was introduced to this combo by Eric "Obi-wan" Cheng has a certain something to do with it's popularity...:-) His shots from Kona and the Bahamas certainly show that digital "has arrived." I've had the pleasure of using the D60/UK-Germany setup and I have to agree - it's a work of art and form follows function.

With that said, I think that the balance is shifting now. The fact that there are something like 7 housings available for the Nikon and still only 2 for the Canon says a lot about which system the "industry" wants to invest in.

And I've learned my lesson the hard way that it's not always the "best" system that the industry backs - just what they feel will be the most popular.

There are a lot of pros out there that shoot housed D1x's and I think that there will soon be a few more of them shooting S2pro's as well - time will tell. In the meantime - kudos are in order for Canon for breaking this whole thing open.

Cheers
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#15 wetpixel

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 09:49 AM

With that said, I think that the balance is shifting now.  The fact that there are something like 7 housings available for the Nikon and still only 2 for the Canon says a lot about which system the "industry" wants to invest in.

Actually, our buddies over at http://www.digideep.com show that there are seven housings available for the D30/60:

ewa-marine U-AXP
UK-Germany UK-D-D60
Ikelite # 6670.60
Sea & Sea DX-30/60
Bachlmayr D30/D60 Housing
Jonah Housing CD60
Subal D60

... and nine for the D100:

Sea & Sea DX-D100
Aquatica D100 Housing
Subal D10
Light & Motion Titan D100
Ikelite D100 Housing
Nexus D100 Housing
Jonah Housing ND100
Sealux CD 100
UK-Germany UK-D-D100

I'm not sure if this is current, but your "still only 2" quote is wrong. :lol:
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#16 james

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 10:22 AM

OK, well I guess you can amend my statement to:

"Housings you can actually buy for the D60 - 2" This is all IMO of course -

UK-Germany and
Sea and Sea.

And my list of "Housings you can actually buy" for the D100:

Sea and Sea
Subal
Nexus
Aquatica
UK Germany

Thanks folks, I'll be here all week...:-)

Cheers
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#17 wetpixel

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 10:28 AM

OK, well I guess you can amend my statement to:

"Housings you can actually buy for the D60 - 2"  This is all IMO of course -

UK-Germany and
Sea and Sea.

Isn't this for the U.S. market only? What are European folks shooting? Can't you get Subal D60 housings over there? :lol:

I've been using my 10d a lot. I like it. But I can't take it underwater.

Man. I have way too many cameras. But then I just think of other people I know who have even more, which usually makes me feel better. :D
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#18 tshepherd

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 10:37 AM

So, Eric, you going to be the first one to buy the Subal housing for the 10D that's supposed to be available in July then?

#19 craig

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 05:55 PM

ewa-marine U-AXP? I'll let you test that one. Eric I thought you were going to house your 1Ds? That's what I want to see.
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#20 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 11:36 PM

As I said above, I saw a Subal D60 housing at the weekend. That was certainly a fully working model that I presume was on sale or promised to a customer.

It was at Ocean Optics in London

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