19 replies to this topic

[Arnon_Ayal]

I'm thinking to upgrade to a DSLD, since I uses Canon from almost the day I started to shut I naturally thought about the new 10D, but its a little expensive for me for now so I thought maybe I can find a D60 for less money in EBay or other used equipment recourses.
But then I found that people ask (and get!) for a used D60 body almost the same as new 10D body from the store. I assumed that the 10D is improved version of the D60, so why to pay almost the same for a used old version?

[MikeO]

Good question. The 10D certainly seems to be a superior camera. However, it is backordered almost everywhere. Perhaps people are a bit impatient and would rather have a D60 in hand than wait for a 10D. Plus, the D60s are going for less on eBay. Several auctions for the camera body ended recently at $1100, one with the camera and the 28-135IS and a few other things went for $1425. 10D currently goes for $1499.

Mike

[Reefkeep]

Both cameras are great the 10D is much better at Macro. At night, macro with the d60 and a 100mm lens is almost impossible. The 10d is still not a walk in the park at night but possible.

[Arnon_Ayal]

10D is much better at Macro

Can you expand of that? What is the different and so on...?
Any others major changes relevant to the u/w world?

Thanks

[Reefkeep]

The D60 focusing with a 100mm lens I found frustrating in anything other than good light. In fact on night dives I found the camera painful at focusing. The 10D is fantastic in low light but still difficult if only lighted by the strobe modeling lights.

The 10D Battery life is maybe 20% better on the 10D and it’s $1000 cheaper.

[Cybergoldfish]

This goes for any camera using AF: Try manualxDOF+brain

[james]

Ya, you'll get better results with MF for anything above 1:1 in my opinion. It's not easy though.

Cheers
James Wiseman

[craig]

The 10D Battery life is maybe 20% better on the 10D and it’s $1000 cheaper.

Wow those Canon batteries are expensive!

[Reefkeep]

Yeah but they last

[Arnon_Ayal]

Yeah but they last

How long the batteries last? (mas o menos)

his goes for any camera using AF: Try manualxDOF+brain

manual DOF: no problem
Brain: that’s a problem :freak:

[Reefkeep]

I have shot over 300 pictures over 4 dives and it still showed full.

[Andi Voeltz]

Hi Alto,

I think you were located in Germany or Israel, right? However I got stuck in the same buying situation between
both cameras here in Berlin and finally decided on the 10D. Enclosed are some of my reasons for it:

1. I did not need an underwater housing right now and could wait till August/September

2. I read that the focussing was improved, a lot which I can verify after trying
both cameras at Saturn store in Berlin. Also the store employees told me that
they had several complaints for the D60, because some old lenses would simply
not focus. So far they could not see this happening again with the 10D but gave
credit to the fact that the product is still very young. However they sell 1-3 Canon
10D cameras every week in this single store

3. IBM Microdrive read/write speed was improved, compared to the D60

4. The 10D has the lowest shutter lag of all semi-pro DSLR camera currently available

5. It was the first time, that the guy from dpreview.com comitted
himself to a clear buyers advice. As you can imagine he recommended the 10D, when choosing
from Fuji S2 Pro, Canon D60, 10D or Nikon D100. But please note that the lense issue played
a mayor role in his recommendation. Especially for SLR newbies like me, because you have
lots of different lenses to choose from, or to start with in my case.

6. low-light capabilities should have improved (said before)
I cannot compare, but can verify good perfomance after several shots.

7. The cache really kicks ass!!! You can almost shoot at any time you
like!!! Even in RAW mode... (8MB each file) and it goes right away,
click, click, click... After 9 images it slows down and you have approx.
1-2 seconds between each shot. However the red light from the
drive is almost *always on* in these kind of situations

8. I liked the battery solution (Li-Ion included). It charges in less then
60 minutes. (manual says 90 minutes, but so far I have been lucky it seems)
Additional battery costs around 85 EUR, which is ok and manual says
you can to up to 650 shots with one charge, which I can confirm too.
I think someone was making fun about the battery prices more up in this
thread.... With one additional Li-Ion BP-511 I'll do fine on every
safari-boat... however It looks like 4 normal AA batteries would also fit
for emergency situations, but I was not keen enough to try it, since I
found no data about in the manual.

9. A yes, and finally I prefered the magnesium body B) for such a strong
investment. Built to last... but more heavy... men's stuff my girlfriend said.

All in all, I stood between a bundle offer for the D60 for around 1.999 EUR
together with a SIGMA WA Zoom Lense or the 10D body mailordered for
1.850 EUR. I think they do not have the bundle anymore, but the nine
reasons above made me go for the 10D. Also I wanted to own something
which is really currently hard to get for this price. At Saturn they sell the
10D body (no lense) for 1.999 EUR.

If you are in Germany or have a frined to send it to, I can help you
get it for the best price, because I recently have been through all of
this. Just give me a phonecall/mail B) My phone number can be found
on digideep.com's about page.

Good luck with your decision!

[Arnon_Ayal]

Thank's Andi for your impressive checks and report, its surly increase my tendency to the 10D, since they are so close in the price I don't see any reason to buy an old version.
I'm looking now for options to finance the camera and all the u/w equipment (any volunteers? ) So its sure will take time especially for the housing.

[craig]

5.  It was the first time, that the guy from dpreview.com comitted
      himself to a clear buyers advice. As you can imagine he recommended the 10D, when choosing
      from Fuji S2 Pro, Canon D60, 10D or Nikon D100. But please note that the lense issue played
      a mayor role in his recommendation. Especially for SLR newbies like me, because you have
      lots of different lenses to choose from, or to start with in my case.

This is from the guy noted for saying "goes beyond Nyquist frequency" (http://www.dpreview....asd9/page24.asp). He should have to apologize for that!

While I don't dispute that the 10D is fine camera, consider these reviewers as providing informed data points rather than stating gospel. They make mistakes after all. Curiously in that review, Phil Askey dropped the S2's 12MP mode from the resolution comparison table. In that mode the S2 offers a meaningful resolution advantage over the 10D. It can also use the fabulous 70-180 micro lens. Not being an S2 owner, I have to be content with the "last place" D100. They're all fine cameras.

[james]

While canon owners profess to have a vast array of lenses available to them, most of this array is not a good choice for UW use. I'm finding this out the hard way trying to get a WA for Sarah's D60.

Cheers
James

[Reefkeep]

James,

15mm Fisheye, 16-35, 17-40, 50mm macro, 100mm macro, 180mm macro, what else do you need?

I haved used the fisheye, 15-35 Sigma, 50mm and the 100mm lens with the 10D in your housing.

[james]

Well, the 16-35 is $1200, the 17-40 is like $800, and 17-40 isn't wide enough. The 15mm is good for UW use but pretty much useless topside. The macro lens (50mm) won't shoot 1:1 like my 60mm Nikkor will and Sarah isn't far along enough yet to shoot the 100mm.

I got Sarah the 15-30 and Uwe said he is working on a port and gear - so we'll see. Sarah also has the 50mm and I think we will get the lifesize teleconverter.

But if you have the "competition" you can get a 12-24 and the 70-180 macro and be done w/ it... It's just frustrating to have to buy two sets of lenses.

Glad to hear that you are using the 10D is the same housing though - I'd like to try one.

Cheers
James

[Reefkeep]

I use the 15-30 as well with the UK dome port and an extention. I do however prefer the fisheye.

The best non L class Canon lens has to be the 100mm macro. Forget the Lifesize adapter and just get the 100MM lens. I'll sell you the port if you need it.

[james]

I already got the 50.

Which port extender do you use w/ the 15-30? Which gear?

Cheers
James

[Andi Voeltz]

While canon owners profess to have a vast array of lenses available to them, most of this array is not a good choice for UW use.  I'm finding this out the hard way trying to get a WA for Sarah's D60.

Hi James,

funny, we are stuck in the same buying decision. Lars and I decided to get a WA-Zoom and a 15mm diagonal fisheye. After reviewing some of your pics and advice, the solution for the fisheye is already found. Thanxx again to all wetpixel members for their great support (exept Eric, who was amusing himself again, in places where we all would like to be )! We had to choose from the:

Sigma EX 2,8/15 C/AF Diagonal-Fisheye and the
Canon EF 2,8/15

The Canon is 329 EUR more x-pensive here in Euroland. The shots with the SIGMA seemed convincing too and we did not hear about any flare issues, or nasty stuff with this lense, so the SIGMA should do fine.

However picking a WA Zoom lense is more difficult. Off course our first choice would be the CANON lense, which also Eric is using with the constant 2.8 at any length. It's a dream, but very costly dream. So we decided to buy it one day and have a compromise from SIGMA in the meantime. We are now not sure if we should pick the:

SIGMA EX 2,8-4,0/17-35 HSM C/AF or the
SIGMA EX 3,5-4,5/15-30 DG C/AF

the Sigma 15-30 f.3.5 is 175 EUR more, my pros are:

1. it's wider
2. it has not been reported as victim of flares so far
3. it seems to have a good shade in front

my cons:

1. it's more expensive
2. it's a lot bigger
3. it's less light sensitive (or is it still enough for uw?)

-> concerning the 17-35 HSM 2.8, my pros:

1. it's nice and small
2. it's more light sensitive
3. has a better price

my cons:

1. flares might be a problem, just as with the 14mm SIGMA
2. you have to build your own shade (like james demo'ed with a photo)
3. it's not really wide anymore with 1.6 * 17mm = 27.2 mm

Our general strategy would be to use the flexible WA zoom lense, and if we encounter any problems during a photo session in a certain area, switch back to the fisheye on the next dive, for better coverage und flare prevention... what do the experienced ones think about this?

cheers, andi