39 replies to this topic

[Drew]

Once again, Red has announced industry changing specifications for their new Scarlet and Epic cameras, from 3-28k and even 3D. At 3k, up to 120fps is possible and at 28k it's 25fps. Delivery dates of course has been stated to change but the models are projected to be available from spring 2009 starting with the S35 sensored 5K Scarlet with 1-30fps.
The specifications look amazing and the modular design promises to fit various budgets. However, it took a year for RedRaw to be workable on NLE and only 2 can edit at 4k resolution. As of now, the Red One is still considered a beta camera. Hopefully by the time these new additions join the market, it'll be a finished product with an easier workflow as promised.
http://red.com/epic_scarlet/

[SimonSpear]

Eeeeek!

[Drew]

One also has to remember that at 28k resolution as a movie picture... NOTHING can screen it at the resolution yet. The big projection machines can do 4k today. Also when rendering 4k images, even the fastest machines are having difficulty keeping up.
Cropping a 28k res to say 4k will be very interesting.
I AM joking. If the sensor can really handle 28mp with great sharpness and latitude, the nature and sports photography guys will be dropping their Canon and Nikons faster than we can say Red Scarlet/Epic.

[craig]

No mention of autofocus. I suppose sports and nature photographers will like it if they can get past the weight, battery life, EVF and focus issues.

For underwater, I fear any rig built with these parts will be huge. Videographers won't be deterred but still people will be. There will be at least a 1 year wait to get the resolution that Canon and Sony are delivering today but in a massively larger package and perhaps without autofocus. It doesn't look like a DSLR killer yet. It is intriguing, though. I like the idea of digital, high resolution, stereoscopic macro photography.

[scorpio_fish]

The specifications look amazing and the modular design promises to fit various budgets.

http://red.com/epic_scarlet/

If those estimated prices were rupiah instead of dollars, then various would include me.

[jonny shaw]

MY GOD!!!!!
How the bloody helll would you build a housing for something that has billions of options...

Looks bloody amazing!!!!

[echeng]

I AM joking. If the sensor can really handle 28mp with great sharpness and latitude, the nature and sports photography guys will be dropping their Canon and Nikons faster than we can say Red Scarlet/Epic.

28 MP? You mean 28K, which, according to the RED chart, is 261 MP.

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[loftus]

One also has to remember that at 28k resolution as a movie picture... NOTHING can screen it at the resolution yet. The big projection machines can do 4k today. Also when rendering 4k images, even the fastest machines are having difficulty keeping up.
Cropping a 28k res to say 4k will be very interesting.
I AM joking. If the sensor can really handle 28mp with great sharpness and latitude, the nature and sports photography guys will be dropping their Canon and Nikons faster than we can say Red Scarlet/Epic.

I know video folks tend to look at different specs from the still folks, maybe less focused on specific sensor attributes like noise and dynamic range than DSLR enthusiasts. Is there any data with regard to the performance of RED sensors already out there to make one think that a 28MP RED sensor for some reason will significantly outperform present Canon or Sony, and maybe soon to be released Nikon 20+ MP sensors?

[craig]

Eric posted the spec summary chart for the various sensors. They list 16 bit ADCs and 13+ stop dynamic range for the larger sensors. Their FF 35mm sensor is 24MP, not 28. They also have a MF, 65MP sensor coming.

I think their MF option is interesting. Housable and divable by a single person yet I bet it's not too far off IMAX capability. That would be amazing.

I think the modularity gives lots of options for housing underwater but it adds considerable weight. I'd like to see the industry head in this direction, but this solution is probably too heavy and too costly to encourage DSLR shooters to switch over. It's more a video monster capable of full quality stills.

[Drew]

No mention of autofocus. I suppose sports and nature photographers will like it if they can get past the weight, battery life, EVF and focus issues.

For underwater, I fear any rig built with these parts will be huge. Videographers won't be deterred but still people will be. There will be at least a 1 year wait to get the resolution that Canon and Sony are delivering today but in a massively larger package and perhaps without autofocus. It doesn't look like a DSLR killer yet. It is intriguing, though. I like the idea of digital, high resolution, stereoscopic macro photography.

That is why I'm reserved in my enthusiasm. Red One was popular despite being a beta camera. Only camera out there with regular firmware upgrades to "improve" performance.

If those estimated prices were rupiah instead of dollars, then various would include me.

Rupiah went down

28 MP? You mean 28K, which, according to the RED chart, is 261 MP.

Yes 28K. There's just no way of saying 261MP nice n smooth. Thinking about it, the data rates must be astounding at processing. Obviously these cameras outresolve all present needs for motion pictures. IMAX is 16k and theatrical now is 4-8k.

I know video folks tend to look at different specs from the still folks, maybe less focused on specific sensor attributes like noise and dynamic range than DSLR enthusiasts. Is there any data with regard to the performance of RED sensors already out there to make one think that a 28MP RED sensor for some reason will significantly outperform present Canon or Sony, and maybe soon to be released Nikon 20+ MP sensors?

I think we look for the same things but the motion masks a lot of things. Outperforming is also very subject. The 28k sensor for now is just announced specs, subject to change. Even a movie with a budget of 200million scans film at 4K and not 6K. That should tell you the software limitations etc. The specs are overkill really.

[echeng]

Even a movie with a budget of 200million scans film at 4K and not 6K. That should tell you the software limitations etc. The specs are overkill really.

What did 200 million get you 10 years ago (I mean, besides Waterworld )?

How did that quote go?

"640 KB of RAM should be enough for anybody."

[Drew]

Sure and 64 GB of RAM will be the norm in 4 years.
Thing is that 28k is beyond what is needed for present cinema theatrical release, even IMAX which is theoretically 16-18k I think. Only recently has 4K become a reality. There is no 8k digital camera yet, everything is still shot on film and scanned at 8k for FX and IMAX. If you google Double Negative's workflow for Dark Knight at 8k resolution, you'll see why I say 28K is way overkill for the next 2 years. 4-8k is going to rule til we get 24 core computers. However a 3D film at 28K does present great opportunities. It just has to be transfered back to IMAX film for projectors

[paquito]

Aren't sensors like this possibly going to show some serious flaws in even some of the more serious lenses that can be mounted to it?
If many of the current lenses will be a real handicap, at what point is such a sensor if what you have to accurately aim light at it isnt up to par? Red has already planned for both Canon and Nikon mounts as well as their own, so they must understand something I'm not?

[loftus]

At what resolution point in movies do we exceed the ability of our eyes to discern the difference on various screens from TV to the large screen? Is there not a point where the only benefit of higher resolution would be larger screens ?(which seems kind of pointless except for Obama's inauguration.)

[craig]

The pixel pitch of the larger sensors is 6 microns. That's not unprecedented and lenses are up to the task.

More resolution means larger projection screens. My current living room viewing distance supports a 1080p diagonal screen size of about 70". My old lake house had a 145" diagonal screen that would support 4K easily. I'm not sure I see what 28K is for from a cinema perspective. No screen that would demand that resolution would fit in your field of view. I think the 28K product is just a statement piece intended only for still usage. I don't see much use for its 10:3 aspect ratio. Has any movie ever been released that wide?

[jeremypayne]

Has any movie ever been released that wide?

*** CinemaScope was 2.35:1
*** There was something called "the MGM" that was almost 3:1
*** There was a film shot in the 20's in 4:1 called "Polyvision" and was really three frames displayed side by side

[MatthewAddison]

I notice on the spec sheet for the Monstero FF35 they list an (estimated) 13+ stops of light capability. If I recall, the Nikon D3 is capable of 10+ stops of light. That could be significant if it holds up through actual production.

[craig]

RED's spec of 11+ stops and 13+ stops means they intend to match the performance of today's best 12 and 14 bit DSLR sensor technology. I don't think it means more than that. The D3 is capable of better than 12 stops. If they achieve that it will be incredibly impressive considering their enormous frame rates.

REDCODE225 generates 1TB of data an hour roughly! For that you get IMAX quality

The 28K brain gets a data rate all its own

[Drew]

Craig, where did you get the data rate for RC225?

[craig]

Just based it on the numbers in the name, as discussed here: http://scarletuser.c...read.php?t=1704

42, 225, and 500 MB/sec max. Assuming 225 is really 225 MB/sec max, then 1TB would be 74-78 minutes depending on how you calculated. I've read that Redcode 36 is 36MB/sec max but can be more like 27.