39 replies to this topic

[Drew]

Ah ok, that's not accurate. The numbers are not MB/s but some sort of complex thing. I checked with RED. He wouldn't elaborate but just said it's not a direct max data rate. RED CODE is compressed. While I love the specs, I really have to remind everyone the specs are expected to change, probably DRASTICALLY!
Also remember that the workflow for REDRAW has just recently been finalized, a year after the camera was released. For many indie editors, the workflow is complicated and multi-stepped. There is no native editing (although Adobe has been threatening to release a native codec for PS, PP and AE). I'd expect the bigger code to have more issues due to size and computing power needed.
As Craig has already mentioned, NO AF, EVF and weight are issues for stills people stepping up to essentially high speed shooting (imagine 100fps at 14 or 24MP). However, with stills and video merging, the hybrid format redefines the ability to capture images (still and moving). With hybrid cameras, shooters can shoot clips at high res and have a better chance of capturing the moment. They can then sell both still and/or clip.
Will RED replace DSLRs? No. It does however change the game a bit for high end still shooters.

[jimbo1946]

I haven't understood one bit of all this.

And I live in a red state.

[CamDiver]

Will be getting my own housing soon for my R1, have used others to date, will post images. It's not as beastly as one would think.

Cheers,
Mark.

[DeanB]

Will be getting my own housing soon for my R1, have used others to date, will post images. It's not as beastly as one would think.

Cheers,
Mark.

Wheres my email and contact names you old bugger

Dive safe

DeanB

[CamDiver]

Must be this old waterlogged brain. Care to refresh the old codger in a PM or email..........

cheers,
mark

[loftus]

Decent article here
http://www.bjp-onlin...tml?page=826866
For us DSLR guys I think this is exciting not so much because we may replace our Nikons or Canons with RED cameras but because I think it is likely that RED will raise the bar for Nikon and Canon and accelerate the incorporation of new feature sets into new Nikon / Canon cameras.
To quote Jannard: "We look forward to pushing the 'big guys' along in feature sets and capabilities."

[Drew]

Jeff, that article actually fudges on a few things. The DSMC IS Scarlet/Epic. There is no DSLR killer anymore but these products. Jim's comments came before the D90 and 5D2 were announced (although he apparently knew about it).
Anyone thinking the 5D2 will replace a dedicated video camera is going to be pretty disappointed. Just as Scarlet is not a DSLR killer. Without a good AF compatible with the existing EF and AF-S lenses, I doubt there'll be a mass movement. Studio (fashion, product etc), some sport and nature shooters will move up but the prices are way beyond anything especially since there is no SLR bit. EVFs with peaking will help but let's get real about the prospects.
As for Canon/Nikon adding features, right now the Digic IV processor is already handicapped by the video output. It's not perfect but for what it does, it works, but not for many. The latitude seems to be limited by the processor. So the implementation of further "hybrid" features will likely be handicapped by processor power and also heat, as in the case of the D90.

[loftus]

Jeff, that article actually fudges on a few things. The DSMC IS Scarlet/Epic. There is no DSLR killer anymore but these products. Jim's comments came before the D90 and 5D2 were announced (although he apparently knew about it).
Anyone thinking the 5D2 will replace a dedicated video camera is going to be pretty disappointed. Just as Scarlet is not a DSLR killer. Without a good AF compatible with the existing EF and AF-S lenses, I doubt there'll be a mass movement. Studio (fashion, product etc), some sport and nature shooters will move up but the prices are way beyond anything especially since there is no SLR bit. EVFs with peaking will help but let's get real about the prospects.
As for Canon/Nikon adding features, right now the Digic IV processor is already handicapped by the video output. It's not perfect but for what it does, it works, but not for many. The latitude seems to be limited by the processor. So the implementation of further "hybrid" features will likely be handicapped by processor power and also heat, as in the case of the D90.

Yeah I agree with you, I think we can only benefit though from a company like RED that may never be mainstream, but may pull the big boys along a little.
OK; so given these limitations, where do you see Canon and Nikon ' improving' over say the next 5-7 years. What technologies are out there, maybe still in development, for them to improve or add features to their sensors and/ or processors?

[limeyx]

Yeah I agree with you, I think we can only benefit though from a company like RED that may never be mainstream, but may pull the big boys along a little.
OK; so given these limitations, where do you see Canon and Nikon ' improving' over say the next 5-7 years. What technologies are out there, maybe still in development, for them to improve or add features to their sensors and/ or processors?

As soon as Scarlet ships, my FX1 and D300 housing are out the door. Scarlet will fit me perfectly -- I primarily take video u/w but sometimes I have the need for stills.

Jury is somewhat out if I will get the S35 version. If I can make the stretch $-wise, then I dont see a need for the D300 either.

For anyone shooting moving pictures, I think this is going to be a no-brainer.

If you are mostly stills focused then the prices as currently avertised may be a little on the high side for S35 or Full frame

Those 645 and 617 options sure look nice also

[Drew]

Yeah I agree with you, I think we can only benefit though from a company like RED that may never be mainstream, but may pull the big boys along a little.
OK; so given these limitations, where do you see Canon and Nikon ' improving' over say the next 5-7 years. What technologies are out there, maybe still in development, for them to improve or add features to their sensors and/ or processors?

Well both of them have to get off their butts and take the video portion seriously in terms of better sampling and downsizing of the image. All I see is the result, but someone I know explained what he thinks Canon did (similar to what Daniel Browning thinks) that implementation. He doesn't like the look right now (but that crushed black/clipped highlight look can get old ). CMOS wobble/skew is atrocious right now on the ViDSLRs. I think the 35mm sensor will be the new crop sensor as MPs STILL continue to rise. Seriously cropping is great but anything over 21MP is way overkill. I think the manufacturers will implement video with more controls and options as the processors get more powerful. It won't replace the dedicated video camera though. IS is not as good as OIS. AF definitely is going to be difficult due to the demands of SLRs needing contrast for AF. I think the pro series will incorporate the manual features that the 5D2 lacks now.
The problem is for Canon that they have a vid camera line to protect. Nikon has more freedom but less video experience.

For anyone shooting moving pictures, I think this is going to be a no-brainer.

I think this will be a full brainer actually. RC36 just manages a workflow at 4k, mostly editing in 2k in proxy, unless you have Avid. At 5k, even with the S35, you're looking at a new workflow that doesn't exist yet. It's fine if you can throw the drives at a post house and let them sort it out. But for the small production houses, it's going to be difficult to post for Scarlet for a long while, not to mention expensive. Imagine the machines needed to edit in 5-6k. Monitors don't exist at any affordable level. The biggest projector is 4k from Sony. If you use it as a still camera, it may make more sense. However, the Ikonoskop DII is probably more useable as it's compact and dimensions are fixed. And that's pure RAW without compression (DNG).
Then you have the issue of lenses for the Scarlet. For each lense, you will need specific gears built for them. Unless the housing manufacturer builds in focus and zoom gears like DSLR housings. It'll cost alot. Ask Mike from Aqua Video. His custom gear system isn't cheap even though his housing relatively are.

[craig]

If you are mostly stills focused then the prices as currently avertised may be a little on the high side for S35 or Full frame

Don't forget strobe control and autofocus. DSLR shooters don't just take one frame out of a potential bunch, they shoot using strobes.

A Scarlet brain weighs as much as a D3 body yet it requires a relatively large external battery, external storage, external finder and external controls. DSLR shooters aren't going to take an 8 pound rig seriously as a potential replacement when it lacks an optical viewfinder, autofocus, and decent strobe control. They are already getting more than Scarlet offers for stills at 1/3 the weight and 1/3 the cost and even then the size and price are high.

Scarlet/Epic is an exciting video alternative that also does still; it is not an exciting still alternative that also does video. You have to be focused primarily on motion shooting to consider this. I think modular has potential for underwater still shooters but not at RED's size and weight.

[Drew]

Looks like Red Scarlet specs have been updated. $3750 for a 2/3" 3k camera. Not bad. I do have to ask what the complete kit means. The same sensor in the 2/3" Cinema is $2500 body only. Does that mean Scarlet Fixed lens will be ready to go at $3750 or is it compelete except for control grip and battery etc etc.
I do know that a few people will be very happy to see this in wildlife cinematography:

Now where's the submarine version?

[craig]

I noticed the proliferation of REDCODE variants in the newest announcement. Of course, that doesn't mean a whole lot...

Housing one of these would be an interesting exercise. When I first started diving I did a Little Cayman live-aboard with a guy that shot stereoscopic macro. I would find a digital stereoscopic setup very interesting and RED would let you do that. No autofocus with macro, wide would be hard, but you could do 24MP stereo stills and that's almost certainly higher quality 3D than anyone has done before underwater.

[limeyx]

Looks like Red Scarlet specs have been updated. $3750 for a 2/3" 3k camera. Not bad. I do have to ask what the complete kit means. The same sensor in the 2/3" Cinema is $2500 body only. Does that mean Scarlet Fixed lens will be ready to go at $3750 or is it compelete except for control grip and battery etc etc.
I do know that a few people will be very happy to see this in wildlife cinematography:

Now where's the submarine version?

My assumption was (and you know what that did) that $3750 is "supply your own CF card and go shoot" of course, you could always buy more LCD's, batterys and all the other crud etc.

This camera (some version of it anyway) will change my u/w shooting in a huge way, and I will be be on it as soon as physically possible.

I am praying I can afford the SS35 and throw out (er, I mean attempt to sell) my then boat-anchor of a Sony FX1 and probably at least the U/W baggins for the D300 if not the entire camera.

I think for people who primarily shoot video but also want stills, Scarlet changes the landscape.

For people who are primarily stills, pending any further changes from RED, it seems like price-wise it's not there yet though.

[Drew]

Yes, apparently according to Jon Sagud, it's a real 'ready to go kit" without memory card. Of course all specs and prices are subject to change and it's at least a year away so I wouldn't hold your breath on the specs staying the same.

[photovan]

Yes, apparently according to Jon Sagud, it's a real 'ready to go kit" without memory card. Of course all specs and prices are subject to change and it's at least a year away so I wouldn't hold your breath on the specs staying the same.

who's betting it will be a completely different world in 12 months time. For a start Canon's 1dsmkIV with 60fps 3k and no jelly wobble will be out by the
I guess this is how rumours get started

[Drew]

Actually I don't think even the next gen Digic V will be powerful enough to handle 1080/30P well. Canon made too many compromises to squeeze 1080P in the 5D2. It looks great for certain shots but highlights are clipped and shadows crushed.
Every CMOS sensor, including Red's Mysterium XXX will have a bit of wobble/skew. That's why the Ikonoskop will also be a player... especially for specialty action shots.

[jonny shaw]

That's why the Ikonoskop will also be a player... especially for specialty action shots.

Yeah the Ikonoskop looks pretty awesome, not super expensive, small, inter-changable lenses... It could be a great U/W cam

[craig]

I don't understand why so many people post in so many forums their assumption that Canon will have a Mark 4 out next year. The current camera is only a year old and Canon is traditionally on a 3 year cycle with those products. It isn't as though the 1Ds3 is a weak product. Quite the opposite.

I thought RED claimed that its sensors had solved the wobble/skew problems?

[photovan]

I don't understand why so many people post in so many forums their assumption that Canon will have a Mark 4 out next year. The current camera is only a year old and Canon is traditionally on a 3 year cycle with those products.

Next year, year after... i was really just suggesting the world won't be standing still...

It isn't as though the 1Ds3 is a weak product. Quite the opposite.

Agree, all my 1d series cameras were top of the pack .... on the day they were released.