12 replies to this topic

[spaceflight]

It looks like Canon has released 5 new camcorders.
VIXIA HF S10
Image Sensor 1/2.6-inch CMOS, RGB Prmary Color Filter
MPEG4-AVC / H.264

VIXIA HF S100
Image Sensor 1/2.6-inch CMOS, RGB Prmary Color Filter
MPEG4-AVC / H.264

VIXIA HF20
Image Sensor 1/4-inch CMOS, RGB Primary Color Filter
MPEG4-AVC / H.264

VIXIA HF200
Image Sensor 1/4-inch CMOS, RGB Prmary Color Filter
MPEG4-AVC / H.264

VIXIA HV40
Image Sensor 1/2.7-inch CMOS, RGB Primary Color Filter
MPEG2

It looks like they all have selectable fram rates of 60i, 24p Progressive (records at 60i), 30p Progressive (records at 60i)

You can see all of them here Canon Website

They also have a page to compare three of them at a time. Compare Cameras Here

[Drew]

Thanks for the post. 3 sec record cache is nice but could do with 10 sec. They've maxed out AVCHD with 24mbps so I wonder if they'll throw in 720/60p soon

[scaper]

The HF S10 and S100 have 58 mm filter threads and probably larger lenses than their cousins. There is a rumor on another forum that Canon says these two resolve 900 lines (per mm?), and I think that compares with 800 or so that has been measured for the XH-A1. Hope there are some housings for these down the road.

Pat

[spaceflight]

I just noticed this little bit of informaton about the HV40.
Canon VIXIA HV40 HDV Camcorder
The Canon VIXIA HV40 HDV Camcorder, a replacement to the highly acclaimed VIXIA HV30 camcorder, shares the core components found within the VIXIA line, but also offers a Genuine Canon 10x HD Video Lens and 2.96 Megapixel Full HD CMOS Image Sensor. What's more, the camcorder allows consumers to record in native 24p Mode, a feature previously found only on Canon's professional camcorders. Native 24p allows consumer to capture and record 24 progressive frames per second to a HDV tape, a big advantage for the serious filmmaker. Another add-on feature, Custom Key Mode, enables consumers to assign commonly used functions to a single button on the camcorder for easy access.

This HV40 is very interesting for anyone that still likes to shoot to tape!

[scaper]

I just noticed this little bit of informaton about the HV40.
Canon VIXIA HV40 HDV Camcorder
The Canon VIXIA HV40 HDV Camcorder, a replacement to the highly acclaimed VIXIA HV30 camcorder, shares the core components found within the VIXIA line, but also offers a Genuine Canon 10x HD Video Lens and 2.96 Megapixel Full HD CMOS Image Sensor. What's more, the camcorder allows consumers to record in native 24p Mode, a feature previously found only on Canon's professional camcorders. Native 24p allows consumer to capture and record 24 progressive frames per second to a HDV tape, a big advantage for the serious filmmaker. Another add-on feature, Custom Key Mode, enables consumers to assign commonly used functions to a single button on the camcorder for easy access.

This HV40 is very interesting for anyone that still likes to shoot to tape!

Joe, how is the 24p of the HV40 different from the 24p of the HV20 and HV30?

Pat

[spaceflight]

Joe, how is the 24p of the HV40 different from the 24p of the HV20 and HV30?

Pat

It's not that its different from the HV20/HV30, just that it's different compared to the other models. For some people, that one difference could be a decision maker.
I just compared the HV30 to the HV40 specs (again) and the only actual difference I can find is the addition of the "custom key mode" to the HV40.

[Drew]

The custom key mode might mean one push MWB at last.

Interesting they say the Canon professional range has 24p when it's really 24F in their own text.

[ronscuba]

One push MWB is available on the HV10,20,30 and it's not on the touch screen. It's on the "Set" button. Ikelite list access to the "Set" button and MWB. I've been contemplating getting the Ikelite HV10 housing for when I don't want to lug my FX7 or for more casual shooting.

[scaper]

After some more reading, I think I understand what they are saying about 24P. The XH-A1 and higher end Canon cameras have 24F which is a progressive signal extracted from sensors that are not natively progressive. In the case of 24F, the signal is recorded in HDV with out any pulldown. At least one person has said that this means there is more room in the HDV signal and that more of the 25 mbps can be used for detail preservation and motion depiction. The HV40 will have a sensor that is natively progressive, so Canon does not have to describe it as 24F. For 24P on the HV40, there will be no pulldown. Maybe this also means that the 24P HDV on the HV40 will be less prone to loss of detail and compression artifacts than if it were being embedded with pulldown. The XH-A1 image is supposed to take a 10% resolution hit whenever you use 24F or 30F, because of Canon's algorithms for extracting a true progressive signal from non progressive sensors. It would seem that the HV40 HDV would not lose any resolution when used in 24P.

I have messed with using my HV20 in 24P mode underwater, and the image quality doesn't hold up that well if there is a lot of motion. Maybe the HV40 will do much better.

Pat

[Drew]

One push MWB is available on the HV10,20,30 and it's not on the touch screen. It's on the "Set" button. Ikelite list access to the "Set" button and MWB.

I didn't say it wasn't available You have to go through the function for WB to get to MWB. With a button set for MWB alone, you can use the set button for exposure/shutter control instead.

After some more reading, I think I understand what they are saying about 24P. The XH-A1 and higher end Canon cameras have 24F which is a progressive signal extracted from sensors that are not natively progressive. In the case of 24F, the signal is recorded in HDV with out any pulldown. At least one person has said that this means there is more room in the HDV signal and that more of the 25 mbps can be used for detail preservation and motion depiction. The HV40 will have a sensor that is natively progressive, so Canon does not have to describe it as 24F. For 24P on the HV40, there will be no pulldown. Maybe this also means that the 24P HDV on the HV40 will be less prone to loss of detail and compression artifacts than if it were being embedded with pulldown. The XH-A1 image is supposed to take a 10% resolution hit whenever you use 24F or 30F, because of Canon's algorithms for extracting a true progressive signal from non progressive sensors. It would seem that the HV40 HDV would not lose any resolution when used in 24P.

Canon used 24Psf (24p in 60i data stream) before. They claim that 24p is available in their professional cameras which is only true if they count the XL2 SD camera. They do not have a native 24p HD camera. Sony, on the other hand, had native 24P recorded to dv tape in their Z7/S270 models onwards. Sometimes I wonder who does their copy work.
Pat, 24fps is a look which needs certain camera technique, primarily very slow camera movement. When the scene has a lot of movement of subject you will get a strobic effect. That is why I always suggest people shoot in 30P and slow down the clip to 24fps for fast motion subjects. Only for pretty static or slow moving subjects should 24fps be used. Why do you think ESPN and ABCsports all use 720/60p and 1080/60i instead of 1080/24p?

[scaper]

Canon used 24Psf (24p in 60i data stream) before. They claim that 24p is available in their professional cameras which is only true if they count the XL2 SD camera. They do not have a native 24p HD camera. Sony, on the other hand, had native 24P recorded to dv tape in their Z7/S270 models onwards. Sometimes I wonder who does their copy work.
Pat, 24fps is a look which needs certain camera technique, primarily very slow camera movement. When the scene has a lot of movement of subject you will get a strobic effect. That is why I always suggest people shoot in 30P and slow down the clip to 24fps for fast motion subjects. Only for pretty static or slow moving subjects should 24fps be used. Why do you think ESPN and ABCsports all use 720/60p and 1080/60i instead of 1080/24p?

When they claim that they have 24p available in their pro cameras, they are talking about 24F. It's a true progressive stream extracted from non progressive sensors using some proprietary Canon process. So 24F from an XH-A1 or G1 or one of the other higher end Canon HDV cameras is not recorded in a 60i stream on HDV. There is no pulldown. When I use Cineform's NeoHDV to convert 24p (in M2T files on HDV tape) from an HV20, I have to ask it to remove pulldown since in this case the clip is recorded in 60i. This is also true for all Sony implementations of 24p on HDV cameras. For Canon's 24F, however, NeoHDV simply extracts a 24p file (AVI). Since there is no pulldown, no extra frames have been added or created. Since none have been added or created and since there are only 24 frames per second, there is more headroom in Canon's 24F files. According to an expert on dvinfo, this means that Canon's 24F laid down on HDV has more bandwidth in the HDV signal to account for motion, and hence there may be less loss of detail or macroblocking when you are filming a scene with a lot of motion. The HV40 has a native progressive sensor, so Canon does not have to call their signal 24F for this camera. Like 24F, however, it is laid down onto tape without any pulldown whatsoever. It is not embedded in a 60i stream. If what that expert says is true, then it may also be true that the 24p of the HV40 can accomodate more motion than an HV20 or HV30 before you max out the codec's ability to handle it. In other words you have the full 25 mbps bandwidth of HDV to devote to a mere 24 frames. Look at the specs for the new cameras and you will see that Canon makes it clear that 24p on the AVCHD cameras is recorded in 60i. They do not have to indicate this for the HV40, because the signal is not in 60i. The ambiguity stems in part from their 24F format which has true progressive files from sensors that are not progressive. That's why they did not call them 24p.

Obviously shooting in 24p requires a different technique than 30p and 60i. What I was reffering to was loss of detail and macroblocking that I saw when out of curiosity I let an HV20 in a Sony sports pack drift down a creek (a water-powered dolly if you will). The point I was trying to make is that if the dvinfo guy is right, 24p on the HV40 will be more forgiving of motion, regradless of whether that motion is from bad technique or a part of the scene the videographer is trying to capture.

Cheers!

Pat

[Drew]

Pat
To claim 1080p, the source has to be from a progressive sensor. That is the industry standard and Canon knows it. None of their HD pro line cameras have progressive sensors, which is my point. That is why I find the sloppy copy funny.
As for the robustness of HDV at 24P vs 24Psf, that advantage was shown in the Sony Z7 a year ago, which was why quite a few people use them as run and gun B cams in 24p. There's nothing new... Canon just beat the crowd putting that in consumer cameras. I just hope they bothered to make it compatible with Sony's version so we don't have issues again with NLEs.

[scaper]

Pat
To claim 1080p, the source has to be from a progressive sensor. That is the industry standard and Canon knows it. None of their HD pro line cameras have progressive sensors, which is my point. That is why I find the sloppy copy funny.
As for the robustness of HDV at 24P vs 24Psf, that advantage was shown in the Sony Z7 a year ago, which was why quite a few people use them as run and gun B cams in 24p. There's nothing new... Canon just beat the crowd putting that in consumer cameras. I just hope they bothered to make it compatible with Sony's version so we don't have issues again with NLEs.

Drew, I didn't realize the Z7 had non-Psf 24p. If I stopped getting excited about cameras like the HV40 every year, maybe I could afford one. Does the Z5 have this feature as well?

Pat