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#1 Steve Douglas

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 10:55 AM

Unfortunately, in low light, video noise is a pest, especially with uw work. I have been sent numerous so called noise reducers and found only the one from CHV to be of much use. However, I recently was sent a new plug in from Neat Video that shocked and amazed me at how well it worked. I recently wrote a review on the kenstone.net site for those who are interested. There are versions for PC and Mac as well as for FCP and AE. I didn't tried their limited abilities free demo so I have no idea how limited it really is but their pro version was superior to anything I have used in the past. Well worth the investigation and thought to share it with you guys.
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#2 TheRealDrew

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:07 AM

Unfortunately, in low light, video noise is a pest, especially with uw work. I have been sent numerous so called noise reducers and found only the one from CHV to be of much use. However, I recently was sent a new plug in from Neat Video that shocked and amazed me at how well it worked. I recently wrote a review on the kenstone.net site for those who are interested. There are versions for PC and Mac as well as for FCP and AE. I didn't tried their limited abilities free demo so I have no idea how limited it really is but their pro version was superior to anything I have used in the past. Well worth the investigation and thought to share it with you guys.
Steve



Steve, please stop this. Bought a DroboPro the other week and now looking at this. Both my wallet and I thank you for your considertation of the request :)

#3 Francisco Xavier

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 01:22 PM

Steve, please stop this. Bought a DroboPro the other week and now looking at this. Both my wallet and I thank you for your considertation of the request


What you mean with DroboPro? I have Neat noise redution and I got good noise redution.

If you can explain clearly your point of view, we will apreciate your opinion.
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#4 TheRealDrew

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 01:35 PM

What you mean with DroboPro? I have Neat noise redution and I got good noise redution.

If you can explain clearly your point of view, we will apreciate your opinion.


Sorry. The other week Steve wrote a review of the DroboPro storage system, which I had been kicking around for a bit and then bought it. Looked at this review and started getting my credit card out again :)

#5 Steve Douglas

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:12 AM

Drew......Wow, so how do you like the Drobo Pro? I'm still learning a few things with it and so far, no complaints. What size HDs do you have running in it? I still have 3 open ports left.
The Neat Video plug really works well as well. Next week I'm reviewing a mulitmedia bag set up from Think Tank, so you probably won't have to shell out for that too.
My concern, once I go to that great cinemaphotographer in the sky, who the heck will get all this stuff. My wife certainly has no use for it.

Steve

Francisco....The DroboPro is a Raid like archive system not related to plug ins. The Neat Video plug in is something different, sounds as if you have it anyway.

Edited by steve, 20 October 2009 - 09:14 AM.

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#6 TheRealDrew

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 01:36 PM

Drew......Wow, so how do you like the Drobo Pro? I'm still learning a few things with it and so far, no complaints. What size HDs do you have running in it? I still have 3 open ports left.

'
It is really good in some respects and not so good in other respects, but some of those other respects I sort of knew would be there, but not quite so bad :)

Basically with all the hard drives and additions I always have I wanted something that is easy to configure and use as a general bulk back-up storage so have been eyeing the Drobo for quite awhile. Hooked it up via iSCSI, slapped some drives in, very easy as you noted, set up for two drive failure and works as advertised. For instance, iTunes music and movies are touching 1 Terrabyte just about and I really like to have at least Two (sometimes 3) copies local and one someplace safe. Got to be a pain and splitting drives, so I made a two terrabyte Volume on the Drobo, copied one of the two sets Drobo, freed up one of the other drives. I am going to put a 2 Terrabyte drive into one of my other RAID/External Enclosures to I can consolidate on that end.

It is also nice to have items that I do not use often, and have to once in awhile look for, on the Drobo in case I need it (old projects for instance.)

On the BlackMagic tests I did not get quite as good a rate as you did, but it was okay. But that was not my real intent, I am looking at this as bulk storage. It was slow transferring files over. Slower than I expected (even knowing it is slow.) Really it is not bad for smaller files, but I have some large video files and moving over Terrabytes of information was slow. (No big deal for photos and things.) All the drives are 7,200 RPM, some different sizes, 3 or 4 1 Terrabytes, 3 or 4 1.5 Terrabytes and now 1 2 Terrabytes.

And the real kicker, replacing a drive. Followed the directions, decided to swap out a 1 Terrabyte for a 2 Terrabyte for S&G purposes, but the data is "at risk" and not properly protected until it rebuilds. It started at 270 hours according to the estimate. It has been building for a bit now (few days) and down to about 120 hours last I checked. Spoke with support and they said that is not very off base based on the fact that I had about 80% filled when replacing the one drive, and also they mentioned Seagates should have a jumper removed to help rebuild times. Last tip was to not have the unit connected to the computer so the software does not keep on checking (Best way they said is to shut down the computer then disconnect the DroBo.) Note that all 8 bays had drives in when I swapped out. When I put drives in before all the bays were filled, was quick and a non-issue it seemd.

Right now I will let it rebuild (no need to have it plugged into the computer while doing so) and may go poking around later when it is done to do some more testing, change jumpers and what not. It very well could be something I did, though many reports out there do say the rebuilds are slow.

But for bulk storage with a unit that is pretty much easy to just grab and take someplace it is fine. And it is VERY quiet, which is nice. Being able to throw whatever drives I have around into it is also good. Basically, all the plug and play options/functions/expansion is what I was looking for. I actually got a second one (not yet set up) since I liked the first one generally (but got it before the rebuild :)) and will hook it up to clone/back-up the computers automatically and probably will use it for iTunes and other things that should work fine where the speed should not be a big an issue (having the entire library available for Apple TV). I still want to kick the tires more on it.

I will use my other enclosures/RAIDs for the heavy lifting and will move things from the Drobo back to some of the faster items by copying overnight. In other words as a "all-in-one not having to think too much bulk enclosure expandable option quiet unit with some redundancy for a copy of things locally so I do not have to pull out a ton of hard drives" it is fine but for the rebuild time, which could be something related to the way I have it set up, dunno. I would probably do video edits and renders to some of my other externals and/or 3 internal bays in the MacPro, with various RAID configurations.

The Neat Video plug really works well as well. Next week I'm reviewing a mulitmedia bag set up from Think Tank, so you probably won't have to shell out for that too.
My concern, once I go to that great cinemaphotographer in the sky, who the heck will get all this stuff. My wife certainly has no use for it.

Steve


Great, camera bags. You just had to Steve. I collect Pelicans, bags and the rest it seems sometimes in the hunt for the perfect way to transport things :) As to who gets it? Well I got my wife hooked on underwater photography and videography, so I know where my stuff will wind up. Heck, it winds up there now if I do not keep my eye on her enough :)

#7 Steve Douglas

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 11:03 AM

Thanks for taking the time to explain how you went about things. When Data Robotics sent me the DroboPro they included four 1 terabyte WD cards and 1 250 gig card, all spinning at 5400. I certainly didn't transfer over as much stuff as you did at one time and I used the ether net cable rather than the 800. Not sure why they would tell you to disconnect from the computer though. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me but who knows. Sometimes I will just eject it off the desktop and just flick the switch on the back. The one thing I did learn is that if I do shut the power switch off, I must have the Drobo Dashboard up and running to bring it back on line. If I were using the 800 fw, I wouldn't need the dashboard. At least, that was what Mark at Data Robotics told me when he called the other day wanting to know about any feedback from the review. I do wonder why your speed tests are slower than mine, especially since you have the faster drives. I think it may be because the more you fill a drive the slower it runs and 80% is close to my limit of never more than 85%. Try a speed test on a near empty drive if you can.
You're right, the DroboPro is not meant to be a speed demon but it is an excellent archive system. I have been using it for my scratch discs on a couple of projects with no problem but I also have it set for single redundancy as opposed to your dual redundancy.
Steve

ps. You're right, I have a bunch of cam bags from Lowepro and some others but I always go back to the Think Tank bags for almost everything. They have an excellent tripod bag called the Bazooka which telescopes to different lengths depending upon which Bazooka you buy. Plus they're relatively very inexpensive for such high quality. Now to trade some of this stuff for a good lightweight boom pole.

Edited by steve, 22 October 2009 - 11:06 AM.

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#8 shawnh

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 04:33 PM

I tested the NEAT plug-in about 6 months ago. At first I was blown away with small tests. Then I started rendering longer segments and viewing at native resolution on a 1080 monitor. I immediately noticed a lot of banding and edging. After a number of tries, I gave up. I am sure their are ways to get decent performance but this one is not a magic bullet. Better to fix it on capture...which I am close to figuring out :)
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#9 Drew

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 02:10 AM

I've used the Neat Plug-in since it was just a windows app only over 4 years ago. It worked well for SD but in HD you have to be careful how you apply it. I found that a general setting on an entire sequence would cause some of the issues Shawn mentions. However, careful application with separate settings on clips would improve performance. Still, a plug-in is not going to turn snow flakes into sharp high resolution images. It's a great little noise remover for some problem clips and not the key to shooting at 36db gain.

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#10 Steve Douglas

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 02:08 PM

Shawn, You don't say how long the clips were that you saw the banding in. If too long, it is very possible that your position and lighting would have changed thus resulting in a different profile. Try blading the clip into segments where things are different and then apply. I also monitor on an HDMI HD set and have not yet noticed this problem, however, all my testing was with low lit, low quality topside footage. Just came back from the Red Sea and haven't downloaded my footage as yet but will try NV with that when needed.

Drew, one thing I have learned regarding the Drobo Pro is that since all the drives are seen as one drive, you really don't know what may be on any one specific drive that you may have pulled. The media is spread out across all the drives. Therefore, I intend to do another backup on a separate external strictly for archival purposes which.
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#11 TheRealDrew

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 02:45 PM

Drew, one thing I have learned regarding the Drobo Pro is that since all the drives are seen as one drive, you really don't know what may be on any one specific drive that you may have pulled. The media is spread out across all the drives. Therefore, I intend to do another backup on a separate external strictly for archival purposes which.
Steve


Yup, doing the same thing myself Steve. Basically I am looking at the Drobos as big K.I.S.S storage grounds with relative flexibility to change drives/sizes/add volumes etc and use this to change things up. For example, when I got the first Digital 3 Megapixel Still Camera, the 100 Gig drive seem like a ton of room. Then at some point got move over to the 250 Gig Drive, then the 500 Gigg Drive, etc. You know the drill. I always like having one drive to pull easily and store somewhere, so I need to upsize the photo drive again, so instead of having 3 2 Terrabyte drives (one local storage, one worker and one back-up) I am using 2 2 Terrabytes with the local back-up being the Drobo. Things like that.

Another use - Final Cut render files and/or Color Render files take up a huge amount of room and once in while you need to go back to the renders for whatever reason, but do not want to use faster drives to hold them for long term, yet having them available without having to re-render things is something that is good. Drobo is fine for that. If I need the files, drag them over to the fast drives. SuperDuper back-ups. So practically there are alot of things that I find it useful for. I am not sure I would recommend it as the first thing someone should get and of course it depends on everyone's set-ups and needs. For non video work it is okay, but the speed with iSCSI is still not great, could be I am just throwing any drives in there and not worrying but it sometimes got as close to the numbers you reported, but can also be in the 50 MB/s range

#12 Steve Douglas

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 08:26 AM

Drew, One thing I do regarding render files. Since I frequently do so many renders and re renders as I adjust things, once I get done with a project I go to the render manager in the tools sections and delete all renders for that project. I then re render the project so that there is only one render for each effect, transition or filter. This saves a ton of hd space. I never use the media manager as it has a permanent home in the dictionary under 'buggy'. I am actually scared of the thing, but the Render Manager works like a charm every time. Never thought of moving renders to another HD like you have. Will have to think about that one. Right now I have my capture scratch set to the DroboPro and even tho the drives spin at 5400, I've had no difficulities. I am using ethernet rather than the 800fw option.
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#13 jonny shaw

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 05:59 PM

What a sec Steve... so your telling me that every time I render and then do another and another, FCP does over write the files, it keeps them?
Bloody hell, I need to do that as I re-render about every two minutes and have never deleted a render file in 5 years!!!

Another quick one Steve which is sort of related is if you capture and edit in pro res 422 is that more robust for adding filters (and hence noise) than just working natively in HDV? I know that the file sizes will be much larger but will it also reduce the amount of rendering that I will have to do?

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#14 Drew

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 09:56 PM

Yes and no Jonny.
FCP has an undo level which is why it keeps each version of render until it hits the undo limit. The render files are not full video files but just the changes required by the filter or whatever effects used. It still draws from the original file. So every time you tweak the sequence and have to rerender, it will continuously redo a render file in sequence according to your undo level. UNTIL you save and quit. Once you do that, it deletes all the older renders and keeps the latest.
Unless you kept your computer running for the last 5 years and had a 5TB drive in there, I think you'd have known if the render files were piling up. :) You can either go through Finder or Render Manager to delete them. With Render Manager, it takes out every render which sucks. Using Finder, you can choose which render you like or dislike.

As for transcoding HDV, if you are editing moderately in FCS, stay with HDV and make render the sequence to PRO RES. If you are going to do heavy compositing and color work esp in Color/AEFX, it's better to capture to PRO RES to edit. It's slower at the beginning but the middle and the end are faster.

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#15 jonny shaw

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:04 PM

Ah ok, that makes sense! Shame I thought I was suddenly going to gain 1Tb of disc space!

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#16 jonny shaw

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:27 PM

As for transcoding HDV, if you are editing moderately in FCS, stay with HDV and make the sequence PRO RES. If you are going to do heavy compositing and color work esp in Color/AEFX, it's better to capture to PRO RES to edit. It's slower at the beginning but the middle and the end are faster.


Will making the sequence Pro Res make the output look better also, or just easier for rendering etc?

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#17 Drew

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:52 PM

Opps I meant render the sequence. Stay in HDV with all sequence settings.

Better? I dunno. I mean, some people swear by converting everything to Pro Res and they see differences (esp after multiple efx etc). Others go... HUH?!?
Bottomline, if it's for broadcast, the extra effort is probably worth it. If it's for an SD DVD or web, only real post guys can see the difference and they'd be lying if it were easy.

There's a saying for most things... junk in=junk out. There's no magic bullet for anything (well of course Magic Bullet Looks are awesome :))

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#18 Steve Douglas

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 02:23 PM

Sorry, been away for a bit and missed the discussion. Drew is absolutely correct about the renders but it sounds as if you, Jonny, don't undo, you make changes and re render. If it is a change in duration for example, the duration that was not part of the original will have a new render file. Changing the transition from a dissolve to a zoomback, the dissolve render will still be there even after your zoomback transition is rendered. Same thing with filters. While, as Drew pointed out, you don't have 5 years of renders in there, I still like to keep things clean by using the Render Manager fairly religiously. By the way, it will not delete all the renders unless you want it to. When you go to the Render Manager and open up the triangle next to a particular project, different renders from different days will appear. So, if you only want yesterdays renders done away with, you check in the column for that date only. As I said, I usually wait until the end of the project and delete them all before re rendering but, like everyone, we all have different ways to conduct our workflows. I've learned so much just by listening to some of the discussions here that give me new techniques or perspectives.

Right now I am rendering my first(and last hopefully) wedding shot in low light. After the Neat Video noise reduction filter, transitions and whatever other filters I have on this mess, it came up as 9 days to render. That went quickly down to 10 hours and now I still have 7 hours listed with only 32% completed.

Spoke to Shawn this morning about his banding concerns with Neat Video so I went back and applied it to 3 different clips from the Socorros, Cocos and Guadalupe. All 3 clips had different water colorations. Checking it on my output to the HDMI monitor, I noticed some slight banding on the Cocos clip and none on either of the others.
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#19 jonny shaw

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 04:29 PM

I actually just purchased this plugin from your recommendation and I'm pretty impressed. Works really well except it make the subject look slightly 'soft' other than increasing sharpening is their any way around this?

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#20 Steve Douglas

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 10:51 AM

Jonny,
You're right, there is a slight degree of softening that you can always think of as creating a 'film look'. It's all perspective. For uw closeups, you probably wouldn't have noise anyway as long as you had been using lights. For wide angle stuff where the water is a big part of your frame, the slight trade off, I would think, is well worth it. Actually, the softening I have found is minimal. Be careful about overusing any sharpening filter as they can create an artificiality especially in the edges. Interestingly enough, the softening when used topside can help clear up skin tones and blemishes, similar to Digital Anarchy's newest plug in 'Beauty Box' which can be used in AE or FC.
Happy New Year Y'All
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