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Well I finally made my decision about my first Camera


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#1 Sub Nate

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:24 PM

After alot of post and alot of reviewing, I decided to go with the Canon HV30 or 40 with the inkelite housing which ever one I can get there pretty much the same. Anyone recommend any good online dealers? I'm just not sure the hardrive and flash drives are up to par yet with the tape. I want to take video topside and underwater and from what everyone I have talked to says. If you want to seriously edit the video with effects and different things tape is still the best to use. But I will listen to any argument , because I am new to all this so I may be completely wrong. Hey thanks to everyone and if you have anymore opinions I will be happy to here them.

#2 Scubacastor

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 01:16 AM

If you want to seriously edit the video with effects and different things tape is still the best to use.


I don't really see why tape would be better.

Tape has the advantage of not being compressed in AVCHD and being an easily available media. You however have to transfer from tape to PC which means playing the tape. That process takes some time and put some wear on the magnetic heads. None of that with hard drives or flash. The resolution is also lower, 1440x1080 (1 9201 080 is interpolated). The format might be more convenient to manipulate than AVCHD from hard drives and flash based memory in terms of computer resource required but with all of them you can also do the same type of serious editing. For example, Vegas pro handles all my files regardless if they were from tapes or from my flash HF-S10 camcorder.

#3 Steve Douglas

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 12:10 PM

Scubacaster....how do you see the quality difference as being between your previous HDV tape based cam and your current HF S-10? Especially in terms of color saturation, resolution and sharpness? Any problems with WBing your AVCHD cam at depth? It appears that you are in a position to do a good comparison between the 2 formats.
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I have worked as an unpaid reviewer for the editing websites since 2002. Most all hardware and software is sent to me free of charge, however, in no way am I obligated to provide either positive or negative evaluations. Any suggestions I make regarding products are a result of my own, completely, personal opinions and experiences with said products.


#4 Sub Nate

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 12:58 PM

I don't really see why tape would be better.

Tape has the advantage of not being compressed in AVCHD and being an easily available media. You however have to transfer from tape to PC which means playing the tape. That process takes some time and put some wear on the magnetic heads. None of that with hard drives or flash. The resolution is also lower, 1440x1080 (1 9201 080 is interpolated). The format might be more convenient to manipulate than AVCHD from hard drives and flash based memory in terms of computer resource required but with all of them you can also do the same type of serious editing. For example, Vegas pro handles all my files regardless if they were from tapes or from my flash HF-S10 camcorder.


I'm totally new at this so I'm just going off what everyone has told me, I was told the way avchd is compressed sometimes files will over lap each other or something making it harder to edit. So do you burn your movies to DVD to watch on T.V and if so how do the 2 formats compare say when viewing or a 46 in HD T.V or bigger? I wish there was a way you could actually compare video quality, But the stuff on the internet I'm sure is compressed down so there is a loss of quality. I'm using a Mac so I will probably get final cut to do my editing. do you have any vidoes you have edited with your HF-S10?

#5 jonny shaw

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 06:17 PM

There is are a few things which really are being addressed:

Point 1:Solid State vs Tape
point 2:AVCHD vs HDV

For point 1 as much as I love tape, it really is dieing and yes it's a great archive but what happens in 5 years when there are no cams around that play tapes? As long as your work flow is organised solid state is the way things are going whether you want it or not.

Point 2 is open for debate, I've heard that AVCHD is a better compression method compared to HDV but I've also heard it isn't in certain situations, I have not seen any fooatge shot at the same time in the same condidtions to compare. That would be great to see, the key things of image capture with a camera are the bit rate at which the footage is captured, whether it is 25 / 35 / etc etc mbps, the efficiency of the codec, the dynamic range of th camera. AVCHD used to be a pain compared to HDV to edit but I believe those problems are now resolved.
Scubacastor mentions that HDV is 1440x1080 as opposed th AVCHD which is 1920x1080 so AVCHD is better. I don't believe this is true, I'm pretty sure HDCAM is actually 1440 x 1080 but the cameras have fantastic dynamic range and record over bit rates over 100+mbps.

You can get a great image from both a HDV and AVCHD cam, my greater concern would be the ability to get a housing that has WA Ports, WB accessability, diopters for macro and lighting options

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#6 ramaroodle

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 06:48 PM

I just spent weeks doing comparisons and sample uploads etc. I have a Sony HC7 which I got 2 yrs ago. I also have a Canon HG10 which I got 2 weeks ago.

When I got the Sony I stayed away from HDD cams because everybody said the compression into AVCHD had an adverse effect on the video. I can't see it and I put the "O" in OCD. In fact, the HD picture from my HG10 is superior to the HC7. But the ease of using files on a hard disk so far outweighs the slowness of organizing and transferring tapes it isn't even close.

Plus when it's time to transfer.....plug in the camera, drag and drop the files and in less than 30 seconds a full hour of video is on my PC or Mac.


I've found the biggest difference in quality had to do with what codec is used to render the file. Plus, you can put those AVCHD files onto a dvd for storage in HD and even burn them to BluRay.

Edited by ramaroodle, 15 December 2009 - 09:17 AM.

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#7 Scubacastor

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 06:14 AM

Scubacaster....how do you see the quality difference as being between your previous HDV tape based cam and your current HF S-10? Especially in terms of color saturation, resolution and sharpness? Any problems with WBing your AVCHD cam at depth? It appears that you are in a position to do a good comparison between the 2 formats.


It's really hard to tell because what I had in hand was from a Sony HC3 and now I have this HF-S10. Not the same products at all considering also several years of difference which is big technologically speaking. I clearly prefer the HF S-10 for almost everything except the lack of viewfinder. In terms of pictures, I also prefer this camcorder. It also seems to me (but I may be wrong) that this camcorder handles more naturally the underwater colors but I haven't had a chance to test it in many conditions (green/blue/tropical)

#8 Sub Nate

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 11:50 AM

Well now you guys have me thinking again about the canon hfs-10, It was narrowed down to that and the HV40. I did get to hold the hfs-10 and it felt good. I can't find anywhere that carries the hv40 in stock. I just wondering if since there is going to be a learning curve anyway since I'm brand new if I should just learn on the new solid state format? Wow I didn't think choosing a camera would be this hard. I have only seen one housing for the HV40 to, and that was the ikelite, I know for the Hfs-10 Gates make a nice housing for it. So my new question is has anyone used the HFS-10 in final cut to do more the just basic editing? Because when I'm not under water I would like to make short films?

#9 jonny shaw

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 01:28 PM

If i was in your position I would go the HFS-10, Gates housing you will not regret it. HV40 great cam but the Ikelite housing will not compare to the Gates if you can afford it. It is less likely to fog, you have access to all controls and they work better than the Ike, plus you'lkl have heaps of better port options. I have owned both Ike and Gates and Gates are heaps better.... but you pay for...

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#10 Steve Douglas

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 04:10 PM

And if you decide on the HF-S10, you might as well get the HF-S11...larger capacity drive and it fits the same housing.
Steve

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I have worked as an unpaid reviewer for the editing websites since 2002. Most all hardware and software is sent to me free of charge, however, in no way am I obligated to provide either positive or negative evaluations. Any suggestions I make regarding products are a result of my own, completely, personal opinions and experiences with said products.


#11 Sub Nate

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 07:07 PM

I'm still not sure which I want, I have read that, if your going to be doing any hardcore editing doing special effects or color adjustments that the format used in the HF-s10 is a real pain to work with and you need some serious computing power. Any ideas on this? I know this is the same thing as when flim cameras shifted to digital. You just have to get the technology at the right time, I just don't know if this new format has caught up with film yet.And there is nowhere I can find that does side by side comparisons of the finished full product. So has anybody done serious editing with the acvhd format. And if so is it as bad as everone says. I plan I using the camera not just for underwater but for short movies to, Thats why I worry about the editing part so much. Plus I have no experience in editing so I'm kinda looking for the easist format to learn on.

#12 Mike L

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 08:21 PM

As far as cameras go, Id save the $400 and go for the HF S10. The additional 32GB hard drive is not worth is, especially considering you can use SDHC cards for cheap!! Id put the money into the housing and ports.

Ive done a mediochre amount of playing with the AVCHD in FCP and have not had any problems. Most of my shooting is done with the EX1 in XD cam, and editing AVCHD is no different to me. I really do no see, or have experienced any problems with it. Personally, the solid state format is far superior in my book over tape. I cannot stand tape!!!! The only drawback is the need for hard drive space. If you shoot alot, you will need hard drives!! Raided hard drives.

Nate, have you seen the sample video I posted with the HF S11 in a Gates housing with GP32 port?
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#13 Sub Nate

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 10:52 AM

As far as cameras go, Id save the $400 and go for the HF S10. The additional 32GB hard drive is not worth is, especially considering you can use SDHC cards for cheap!! Id put the money into the housing and ports.

Ive done a mediochre amount of playing with the AVCHD in FCP and have not had any problems. Most of my shooting is done with the EX1 in XD cam, and editing AVCHD is no different to me. I really do no see, or have experienced any problems with it. Personally, the solid state format is far superior in my book over tape. I cannot stand tape!!!! The only drawback is the need for hard drive space. If you shoot alot, you will need hard drives!! Raided hard drives.

Nate, have you seen the sample video I posted with the HF S11 in a Gates housing with GP32 port?


One other question can you plug either one of these camcorders the hv40 on the hf s10 straight into the T.V and just watch the video from the camera? It may be a silly quetion but hey I don't know the answer. Also you said you've done some editing in FCP did you use any effects, or color correction? I just heard effects is what really slows done the Computer and you have to render alot, How good of a computer do you need to edit the avchd? I have a I Mac with a 3.06 intel core duo with 4 gb of ram and a terabyte hard drive whould that be fine? How long does it take you to get something in Avchd from your camera to a DVD and what is the process? I love the sound of solid state but its the editing process that scares me. So do you see any quality drop off whe you watch the avchd on a large T.V? Well sorry about all the questions. But thanks for all the comments.

#14 Mike L

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 01:16 PM

Im not sure on the HV40, but yes you can on the HF S10 via the HDMI output.

I am an editing on a 2.4ghz mac pro with 6gb of ram. I have not done a lot of effects...but rendering is a typical need when adding several effects, or so I have always experienced when editing from my Z1u, HC7, HF S10, EX1 and HF S10.

I have been a firm believer in Solid state since the beginning. Tape is definitely dead in my eyes. Of course there are some drawbacks, like storage, but the benefits far outweigh the cons. All the productions I work on for Discovery, History, Nat Geo, etc. are all perfectly acceptable of solid state from the EX1, and many are even using the 5d2 and 7d for productions now.

Hope that helps.
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#15 sjspeck

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 01:01 AM

The HV-40 also has an HDMI port.

I shoot tape but I agree with Mike, my next camera will be solid state - or at least HDD. Probably either the Sony XR-520 or CX-520. Transferring footage is so much faster than importing via tape. My buddy just bought an HF200, it gets 2 hrs. 55min. on a 32GB card at MXP (24mbps) speed, almost double that at FXP (17mbps) - at 1920x1080 resolution. Tape is an hour at 24/5 mbps.

For archiving purposes, you can buy 1TB external drives now for well under $150 - Newegg has a 1TB Hitachi external for $89 and a 1.5TB Samsung for $129. I've seen similar deals from Amazon.

Another very real advantage of HDD/SSD cameras is that battery life, not tape time is now the determining factor in when you have to open your housing. I have 2+ hour batteries but I run out of tape every hour I shoot. Besides convenience the less you open your housing on a shoot, the less likely you'll flood it. And although they're several times more expensive, it's a lot easier to pack a couple 32GB SDHC cards than a couple boxes of tape.

Try to do your color correction with lights or a red filter. And get a housing that does manual white balance for the camera you buy.

HV-30's about 4-5 years old now also. Can you even buy them new?

Good online dealers - I recommend Mike - he's my dealer. I'll buy from him again.

my .02

Edited by sjspeck, 19 December 2009 - 01:22 AM.


#16 Steve Douglas

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:21 AM

What is the largest battery the Canon HF S10/S11 can use within the Light and Motion housing as opposed to the Gates housing?
Steve

ps. IMHO, if someone runs out of tape while shooting, either the action must be absolutely amazing or you are not being descriminating enough in what you shoot. Shooting everything indiscriminatingly just creates more work for you in post. The same applies when using internal drive cams. Unless I am in Lembeh or on safari in Africa I might shoot only 3-4 tapes worth over a 2 week period.

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#17 Sub Nate

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 03:27 PM

Well thanks everyone, I think I will go the HV40 I can pick it up for $700 and I don't have to upgrade my computer. It sounds like you need a quad core computer to edit the avchd, I no its a dying format but I'm just not convinced that I have the computing power I need when I start adding effects, So my question is what are the best tapes to use with HDV and where do you get them? I'm sure I will have a ton more questions once I start trying to download and edit, also what would you recommend for software for a Mac Guy?

Edited by Sub Nate, 19 December 2009 - 03:31 PM.


#18 jonny shaw

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 06:41 PM

I use the cheap red Sony ones, never had a dropout or any issue in 5 years.

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#19 Sub Nate

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 11:41 AM

I use the cheap red Sony ones, never had a dropout or any issue in 5 years.


Are those just mini dv or HDV tapes? does it matter which ones you use.

#20 Steve Douglas

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 01:31 PM

Actually, it really doesn't, the Sony Premium or Excellence series of tapes will do just fine. The HDV mini dv tapes have a stronger backing and you will get a bit less degradation over time but in a real world sense, if you have back upped your capture clips to a 2nd hard drive than you will probably never really need to go back to the master tapes. It also depends upon your log and capturing workflow. Some videographers/editors will capture whole tapes at a time and then cut the clips up in post. Personally, I think this is a poor habit to get into as then you have 1 50 minute clip without knowing where anything is within that clip. It is a pain in the butt to do, but I believe IMHO that it is best to Log and Capture each individual clip and do a batch capture. This way you will have each clip specifically named when you begin to actually edit your sequence.
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I have worked as an unpaid reviewer for the editing websites since 2002. Most all hardware and software is sent to me free of charge, however, in no way am I obligated to provide either positive or negative evaluations. Any suggestions I make regarding products are a result of my own, completely, personal opinions and experiences with said products.