Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Sea Shepherds Ady Gil collides with Japanese whaler


  • Please log in to reply
103 replies to this topic

#41 ColinMunro

ColinMunro

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.K.
  • Interests:Marine Biology, conservation, temperate water diving.

Posted 08 January 2010 - 01:03 PM

People have been asking that question for 20 years, but mostly for reasons that have nothing to do with whaling or conservation. :D



The most likely reasons - as clearly explained in the paper linked by Eric - are a mix of different value systems and national pride. Japan's approach to whale conservation is purely scientific - they have little time for the touchy-feely 'whales are special' approach. So if the stock assessment says whales can be exploited then, as far as they are concerned, that's the end of story. I have to say - whatever your views on whether some whales stocks are suficiently robust or not at the moment (and some of the findings appear to be far from cut and dried) - many of the NGOs lobbying on the IOC do rather shoot theirselves in the foot when they say fairly explicity ' Yes the scientific finding are important - but only if they support our case.. If they don't then scientific stock assessment doesn't matter 'cos whales are special.' You can't really cherry-pick the data you like and expect your interpretation of the data to be views as a fair and accurate representation.

The second point seems to be national pride - no country likes to be told to mend their ways by other countries purporting to hold the moral high ground. If it appears they are being bullied into it, they are likely to dig their heels in. So to respond to Dean's point - Sea Shepherd's campaign doesn't stop whales being killed, all the evidence indicates it has exactly the opposite effect. Whatever Mr Watson's motives, the end result of his campaign is to deepen Japanese resistance to allowing whaling to end for purely economic reasons and to prolong the campaign and fill the coffers of Sea Shepherd So if you are pro-whaling, best option is to donate to Sea Shepherd.

#42 DeanB

DeanB

    Humpback Whale

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3073 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.K

Posted 08 January 2010 - 02:47 PM

The most likely reasons - as clearly explained in the paper linked by Eric - are a mix of different value systems and national pride. Japan's approach to whale conservation is purely scientific - they have little time for the touchy-feely 'whales are special' approach. So if the stock assessment says whales can be exploited then, as far as they are concerned, that's the end of story. I have to say - whatever your views on whether some whales stocks are suficiently robust or not at the moment (and some of the findings appear to be far from cut and dried) - many of the NGOs lobbying on the IOC do rather shoot theirselves in the foot when they say fairly explicity ' Yes the scientific finding are important - but only if they support our case.. If they don't then scientific stock assessment doesn't matter 'cos whales are special.' You can't really cherry-pick the data you like and expect your interpretation of the data to be views as a fair and accurate representation.

The second point seems to be national pride - no country likes to be told to mend their ways by other countries purporting to hold the moral high ground. If it appears they are being bullied into it, they are likely to dig their heels in. So to respond to Dean's point - Sea Shepherd's campaign doesn't stop whales being killed, all the evidence indicates it has exactly the opposite effect. Whatever Mr Watson's motives, the end result of his campaign is to deepen Japanese resistance to allowing whaling to end for purely economic reasons and to prolong the campaign and fill the coffers of Sea Shepherd So if you are pro-whaling, best option is to donate to Sea Shepherd.


Sorry i left the 'nah nah ne nah nah' school ground years ago, however if you insist, from what I've seen their presence is raising and re-igniting lots of awareness ... What evidence have you got that it causes a reverse affect to their cause apart from in Japan itself and maybe other whaling nations... Some Industries fade and die thats life, sad but true ... And whales ARE special, special to anyone with an ounce of humanity and to be honest science doesn't always get it right ... I didn't say it stops whales being killed, full stop, it stops a few being killed and thats a worthy cause in itself ...

And because some people actually DO believe Japans propaganda that they are there for 'research' speaks volumes ... As for nations not liking to be 'bullied' that obvious, still doesn't make what their doing right ...

Dive safe

DeanB
Facebook me ;)
NOW ON SKYPE !!! ... deanb69
www.waterwolf-productions.co.uk

#43 ColinMunro

ColinMunro

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.K.
  • Interests:Marine Biology, conservation, temperate water diving.

Posted 08 January 2010 - 04:30 PM

Sorry i left the 'nah nah ne nah nah' school ground years ago, however if you insist, from what I've seen their presence is raising and re-igniting lots of awareness ... What evidence have you got that it causes a reverse affect to their cause apart from in Japan itself and maybe other whaling nations...



Surely that's the point. What is the benefit of convincing nations that don't hunt whales and don't want to hunt whales that they shouldn't hunt whales?

Surely the point is to convince the whaling nations. If you agree it causes a reverse effect in Japan and maybe other whaling nations.....isn't that the opposite of what someone opposed to whaling would want a campaign to acheive?

#44 echeng

echeng

    The Blue

  • Admin
  • 5842 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Francisco, CA
  • Interests:photography, ice cream, cello, chamber music, quadcopters

Posted 08 January 2010 - 04:54 PM

Here is a leaked video showing the final moments of the Ady Gil -- from the Ady Gil's perspective. She was idling.



eric cheng
publisher/editor, wetpixel
www | journal | photos


#45 loftus

loftus

    Blue Whale

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4571 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Winter Park, Fl

Posted 08 January 2010 - 05:25 PM

That sure changes the perspective; thanks Eric. Why did this have to be leaked? Should really be the first video shown as it puts the others in context.
Nikon D800, Nikon D7000, Nauticam, Inons, Subtronic Novas. Lens collection - 10-17, 15, 16, 16-35, 14-24, 24-70, 85, 18-200, 28-300, 70-200, 60 and 105, TC's. Macs with Aperture and Photoshop.

#46 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:03 PM

Sure does look like the SM2 skipper made a bee line for the AG. Dangerous games being played in deadly conditions. The escalation roadmap is pretty clear.
1. Greenpeace started with skiffs to block the whaling ships and video cameras to shame them so they would stop whaling when the cameras were around. An annoyance but their annual quota of 4xx(sorry I can't remember the exact number) stayed. Water hoses were used to deter skiffs. Also finds $150 million to build the Nisshin Maru, from a dying industry?
2. International pressure from NGO and political lobbies like HSUS in Washington, puts pressure on Tokyo which reacts by upping their catch limit to 8xx minkes in 2005
3. SS and Japanese whaling fleet clash with ship contact, use of butyric acid bottles and gel powders. Japanese get more powerful hoses.
4. Japanese upgrade defenses with flash bang grenades and armed men in riot gear (great PR idea!).
5. SS responds with faked hostage crisis and purported shooting (which was never proven either way).
6. Japanese upgrade to LRADs (ostensibly because flash bang grenades were a bad choice... DUH!) and nets to stop the butyric acid bottles and gel packs. Both sides still collide playing chicken in the most remote area of the world. Japanese hunt whale in front of cameras in defiance.
7. SS upgrades to 3 boats, green laser pointers to blind Japanese crew (brilliant! let's singe the whaler's retinas because they are so pacifist they won't react badly to being blinded!) and propelled object launchers to beat the nets.
8. SM2, seemingly drives straight at Ady Gil, sinks ship and puts lives at risk.
9. Next escalation?

Rhetoric aside, the escalation on both sides is fueling this conflict. SS's strategy to get the Japanese whalers to blink first may have worked. By continually frustrating the Japanese , using butyric acid, gel, ship to ship physical contact and now lasers, the SS MAY HAVE gotten a reaction that they probably wanted for PR purposes. To them, a few broken ribs is worth it. Does it do anything to stop or even reduce whaling? Seeing how Norway has actually increased its quota, I think the opposite is true.
In an effort to negotiate, the Japanese offered to keep the cap at 650 minkes, 26 fewer than they killed in 2009 season. The preservationists said no.

The ultimate issue is whether whaling will stop ever. Whale meat is a dying market, but I do think that the other reason Japan and other whaling nations continue to push this is because of competition for other fish. It was stated in the ICR that the culling is also about removing the whales which eat the same food source as humans, a sort of marine management (same thing as the seal hunt in Canada etc etc). Realistically, whaling will not stop so long as there are humans around.

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#47 harrym

harrym

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 55 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Climbing, caving, skiing, whitewater kayaking, photography

Posted 09 January 2010 - 12:06 AM

Yep.... looks like they were stopped in the water and they turned and went for them....

That is exactly my conclusion after viewing vidos from different perspectives.

I watched the video and from the angle/camera that I saw the Sea Shepard vessel pulled right in front of the Japanese vessel which then struck the Sea Shepard vessel amidships. Cheers
James

If you view only the video shot from the ramming vessel, you would naturally draw this conclusion. However, if you view other videos, you will see that the Japanese ship made a radical turn to starboard to attack the Ady Gil.

Looking at the video again and again, from the Sea Shepherd perspective, one could even think or argue that the whaler was veering to port, and if he had not, would have sheared the Ady Gill in half further aft with far more severe consequences.

Yes, I noticed this too. Actually, the Ady Gil was idling just before the collision (see below). When it became clear to the Ady Gil that they were going to get rammed, the Ady Gil accelerated and moved towards the port side of the approaching Japanese ship (perhaps to dash across the bow of the Japanese ship?). Yes, then the Japanese ship would have rammed the Ady Gil further aft. But the Japanese ship made a last-second dodge to port and sliced off the bow of the Ady Gil. One could also argue that this last-second dodge to port was to line up better on the fleeing Ady Gil.

Here is a leaked video showing the final moments of the Ady Gil -- from the Ady Gil's perspective. She was idling.

The video shot from the Japanese vessel is useful because it shows clearly that the Ady Gil was idling in the water as the Japanese ship approached. As the collision became more apparent, the Ady Gil started accelerating seconds before impact.

Sure does look like the SM2 skipper made a bee line for the AG.

This is very clear if you watch the telephoto video shot from dead ahead of the Japanese vessel. If the video camera weaves from side to side across the bow of the Japanese ship, it would create an optical illusion that the Japanese ship is veering from side to side even if it were driving forward in a straight line. But that's not what happened.

If you study the waves in the foreground of the video you will see that the perspective of the video camera does not change. What changes is the Japanese ship makes a radical turn to starboard to attack the Ady Gil, and a last-second dodge to port to better line up for the kill.

Edited by harrym, 09 January 2010 - 12:17 AM.

Harry M
Nikon D300s, Nauticam, Inon Z-240, Ultralights, Fix LED500
Rollei 35, Pentax K-x

#48 DeanB

DeanB

    Humpback Whale

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3073 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.K

Posted 09 January 2010 - 01:25 AM

Referring to what was mentioned in the actual programmes SS have made an impact on whaling in the Southern oceans over the years they have been campaigning by preventing whaling ... Good enough for me. Thats probably more whales saved than a paper protest sat in the bin ... If the Japanese are so proud/stubborn (well mainly just their government from what's been said) then any protest will go ignored so the direct action approach seems the best option.

And as Drew has pointed out that no one seems to be concerned about the other whaling nations I will look into it as I do admit I haven't recently... Do these other nations hunt in protected waters like the Japanese though ... I know its still wrong but thats what Sea shepherd (in this series) are arguing about ...

Dive safe

DeanB
Facebook me ;)
NOW ON SKYPE !!! ... deanb69
www.waterwolf-productions.co.uk

#49 ColinMunro

ColinMunro

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.K.
  • Interests:Marine Biology, conservation, temperate water diving.

Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:47 PM

I've looked at all three videos from available, including some slightly longer versions uploaded on youtube. My tuppence worth.

1. There is no indication the that the Bob Barker was stationary, or if it was travelling what its speed and course were, so you can't draw any conclusions about changes in course of the Shonan Maru or the Ady gil from that video.

2. The video shot from the perspective of the Shonan Maru: this clearly shows that the Ady Gil is on the stb side of the SM right up until the collision. The AG does not appear to be moving, or moving only slowly. Both vessels are very close but no not appear to be on a collision course.

At 6-7 seconds before the collision there is some prop wash from the AG, suggesting she is gently cruising to stay just level with the bows of the SM.

At around three seconds before the collision, whilst still on the starboard side of the SM (but v close) the AG can be seen to accelerate sharply (look at the wash) in a direction that will take them straight across the bows of the SM.

Did the SM turn to starboard earlier to take it into the path of the AG? Maybe, maybe not - only the ship's log in the investigation will show this. Though it has to be said, the AG was so much faster and more agile its hard to see any whaling skipper considering there any point in changing direction to ram the AG. It would be like a carthorse trying to catch a squirrel.

Would the SM have hit the AG if she had not accelerated across her bows? Maybe. I think the video suggests probably not - though both were playing a dangerous game. Give that only the front quarter of the AG was hit, and that she had clearly started accelerating towards the the SM just before the crash then logic would suggest that at worst the AG would have been bumped if she had not accelerated.

The Shona Maru is a 500 tonne vessel with a maximum speed of 12kts. Changes in speed and direction don't happen suddenly in a vessel that size. The Ady Gil weighed 13 tonnes, yet its engines generated the same power as those of the 500 tonne Shona Maru. It had a maximum speed of 45kts. Put at its simplest the AG could cruise at nearly four times the speed, change direction faster, stop faster and accelerate far faster than the SM.

Does this mean I think the Japanese skipper was not at fault. No, I think the jury is still very much out on that. Does it suggest the skipper of the Ady Gil was at fault? i think its hard to avoid that conclusion.

Extended video from Shona Maru

#50 Andy Morrison

Andy Morrison

    Sting Ray

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Location:Trenton, Michigan

Posted 09 January 2010 - 03:38 PM

Eric, I'm not sure why that video had to be leaked either. I would've released that right away. It suer makes the crew of the Ady Gil look pretty innocent in the collision.

#51 DeanB

DeanB

    Humpback Whale

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3073 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.K

Posted 09 January 2010 - 03:53 PM

Eric, I'm not sure why that video had to be leaked either. I would've released that right away. It suer makes the crew of the Ady Gil look pretty innocent in the collision.


Doesn't matter when it was released really ... However your right the SS crew are not the guilty party its defo the Japanese that rammed the ady Gil ... Pretty easy to work that out ...

Dive safe

DeanB
Facebook me ;)
NOW ON SKYPE !!! ... deanb69
www.waterwolf-productions.co.uk

#52 Andy Morrison

Andy Morrison

    Sting Ray

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Location:Trenton, Michigan

Posted 09 January 2010 - 05:20 PM

Doesn't matter when it was released really ... However your right the SS crew are not the guilty party its defo the Japanese that rammed the ady Gil ... Pretty easy to work that out ...

Dive safe

DeanB


In the court of public opinion it matters tremendously . Its headline news day one and buried day two. And I only said it made them LOOK innocent . Sometimes in a game of chicken nobody blinks.

#53 wagsy

wagsy

    Blue Whale

  • Senior Moderator
  • 3845 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cairns, Queensland.
  • Interests:Sewing and Knitting......no diving of course :-)

Posted 09 January 2010 - 06:39 PM

Who ever was driving the Ady Gil should of really been (reading the road) seeing what the Japaneese were doing and ready to maneuver out the way or be in a position to do so.
Pretty bad though....whats next?
Amphibico Phenom & EVO PRO & Navigator 900
Share Your Underwater Videos www.hdvunderwater.com | www.flykam.com.au | www.reeftorainforest.com.au

#54 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 09 January 2010 - 07:48 PM

I think it's a lot of conjecture on everyone's part on what the intentions of the skipper of the SM2 was. It seemed that he was making an intercept course for the Bob Barker, which from the SS released video from the Bob Barker , correlates the direction it was heading in. Whether he was going to make a pass at the Ady Gil with the hoses, which had been harassing the ship just minutes before with lasers and butyric acid, and either badly misjudged or was incompetent is something the public won't know for a while.
What I have surmised is that both sides will do and say anything to further their own agenda, and the SS are tremendously more media savvy. Then again it seems the ICR is only concerned about what is portrayed in Japan. The rest of the world seems to be an after thought. I mean to hire a PR guy like Inwood, who can't even spin a bottle cap. Like it or not, there are over 6 billion people on earth and not all of them care about whales or see them as anything else but meat or another "fish". Imposed doctrine or ideology is precisely why we have so much death in the world, which some argue is a good thing, so long as they're on the winning side. :D

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#55 Andy Morrison

Andy Morrison

    Sting Ray

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Location:Trenton, Michigan

Posted 09 January 2010 - 08:14 PM

I think it's a lot of conjecture on everyone's part on what the intentions of the skipper of the SM2 was. It seemed that he was making an intercept course for the Bob Barker, which from the SS released video from the Bob Barker , correlates the direction it was heading in. Whether he was going to make a pass at the Ady Gil with the hoses, which had been harassing the ship just minutes before with lasers and butyric acid, and either badly misjudged or was incompetent is something the public won't know for a while.
What I have surmised is that both sides will do and say anything to further their own agenda, and the SS are tremendously more media savvy. Then again it seems the ICR is only concerned about what is portrayed in Japan. The rest of the world seems to be an after thought. I mean to hire a PR guy like Inwood, who can't even spin a bottle cap. Like it or not, there are over 6 billion people on earth and not all of them care about whales or see them as anything else but meat or another "fish". Imposed doctrine or ideology is precisely why we have so much death in the world, which some argue is a good thing, so long as they're on the winning side. :D


Well stated. My feeling is that, while one may admire Sea Shepherds for what they are trying to do, one shouldn't be surprised if they get their nose boodied in the process. It is called Whale Wars after all.

#56 DeanB

DeanB

    Humpback Whale

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3073 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.K

Posted 10 January 2010 - 02:26 AM

Well stated. My feeling is that, while one may admire Sea Shepherds for what they are trying to do, one shouldn't be surprised if they get their nose boodied in the process. It is called Whale Wars after all.


Exactly ... And its never been questioned that its not going to be a battle for both sides and propaganda will be a major weapon in any conflict thats more than obvious. We see it here all the time with fox hunting, something else thats outdated and carried under the banner of 'tradition'. The pro-hunters use propaganda all the time and have the backing of some rich peeps to boost it. Not long ago the pro-hunt lobby did poll which they claimed 55% of the English population were happy with fox hunting only to be revealed that most of those polled were hunt supporters, then a major independent group polled the whole of the UK which revealed that 75% of the UK disagreed with it. However, i've seen there are people and groups fighting lots of different causes all over the globe and this just happens to be one of them and one that gets the most media attention ... For now.

I expect alot of people around the globe haven't really thought or looked into the whales situation and do see them as just animals and food but thats where education comes into it ... Isn't it education and information something that changes peoples attitudes and has done for generations...

Dive safe

DeanB

Edited by DeanB, 10 January 2010 - 02:30 AM.

Facebook me ;)
NOW ON SKYPE !!! ... deanb69
www.waterwolf-productions.co.uk

#57 james

james

    The Engineer

  • Super Mod
  • 9969 posts
  • Location:Houston TX

Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:46 AM

I tend to agree w/ Colin's assessment from a seamanship standpoint. If you are approaching a vessel that has the right of way over you the standard is to turn behind the vessel with the right of way. That would explain the SM2's turn to stbd.

I also agree that if the AG did not gun their engines and shoot in front of the SM2, there probably wouldn't have been a collision.

Cheers
James
Canon 1DsMkIII - Seacam Housing
Dual Ikelite Strobes
Photo site - www.reefpix.org

#58 Andy Morrison

Andy Morrison

    Sting Ray

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Location:Trenton, Michigan

Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:48 AM

I find the argument of who's at fault based on seamanship to be amusing and a moot point for the most part.

It's not like it was a collision between two vessels who were minding their own business and accidentally ran into each other. This didn't happen in the dead of night in 1910. Both vessels were involved in a high stakes game of cat and mouse.They both could have avoided this collision had they chosen. Under normal circumstances the whalers shouldn't have gotten so close and the crew of the AG shouldn't have let them. But they are combatants of sort.

Frankly I think both sides will feel like it was good for their cause.

#59 Giles

Giles

    International Supermodel

  • Moderator
  • 2618 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cayman Islands
  • Interests:water and sun my friend, thats what turns me on.

Posted 10 January 2010 - 11:40 AM

I tend to agree w/ Colin's assessment from a seamanship standpoint. If you are approaching a vessel that has the right of way over you the standard is to turn behind the vessel with the right of way. That would explain the SM2's turn to stbd.

I also agree that if the AG did not gun their engines and shoot in front of the SM2, there probably wouldn't have been a collision.


If you are going to go the route of seamanship then it is all opinion. Both could have avoided and caused this incident. However the right of way may have been given to the AG due to them being to the STB of the SM2, but the AG is MUCH more maneuverable and so in reality the SM2 will always have right of way in this situation. If the AG was in some sort of trouble with it's engines NOT working rather than being turned off then it is very different. Yes from the leaked video we can see that they were not expecting the collision, but were trying to slow the SM2 down. They apparently had tried to do this one too many times.

The point still lays down that the crew of the AG have done something very brave and brought a very important topic into main stream news by risking their lives many are paying attention.
me on the web >> journal / flickr / portfolio
i use >> my camera, eye & stunning good looks

#60 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 10 January 2010 - 12:24 PM

The point still lays down that the crew of the AG have done something very brave and brought a very important topic into main stream news by risking their lives many are paying attention.


And again push the news of a failed industry misappropriating and misusing Japanese money in Japan farther back, further stalling the end of whaling in Japan indefinitely while it stokes the nationalist flames. I'm sure the rest of world's knowledge may have improved, in fact I had 2 conversations about it at dinner last night. Too bad they weren't Japanese! I usually like to give facts and let people deduce what they want from it. But if people think continuing to fuel the nationalism in Japan and prolong whaling for another 50 years is effective, then I'm really interested in that vein of thought. Let's see, average of 400-500 whales killed a year from Japan, avg of 4-500 from Norway and Iceland (which is bought up by Japan ad quotas will most certainly go UP), no end in sight, 50 year extension... probably more than 50,000 whales dead.
Help kill domestic support including public opinion and legal prosecution of misuse of funds, highlight whaling as a negative in Japan. Whaling dies in 10-20 years after slow decline. More than half the dead whales. FYI the numbers are estimates and conjecture but it's there to make a point. Do you want to win the battle or the war?

Just so you think SS is doing well in Japan, the Japanese are claiming the AG was armed and showed this in JAPAN mostly since we don't hear this much in the rest of the world:

Japanese picture of arrows

So the Japanese now think the AD was armed with steel tip arrows and reinforces the terrorist angle. It doesn't really matter if they planted it or if it was really there. The ICR are out to convince the Japanese only, not the rest of the world. Pretty weak compared the SS claimed shooting and "hostage situation". But if it works in Japan, that's all that's needed.

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.