Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Canon Releases EOS Movie Plugin for Final Cut Pro


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#21 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 21 March 2010 - 01:11 PM

I should also add there is a very subtle difference in the clips, MPEG Streamclip being about 2-3% darker on output. That's easy to fix in the settings on MPEG Streamclip. That sort of adjustment doesn't even slow it down any. That said, the compressor file can be set to BT.709 standard as well, something neither FCP or MPEG Streamclip can do with settings.
The timecode uses actual camera recording time, which is always interesting to have. I'm sure once MPEG Streamclip gets bought by someone, they'll add it in. Really they should charge for such a great product. Signore Cinque deserves to make some money on this.

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#22 gbrandon

gbrandon

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 March 2010 - 01:17 PM

I should also add there is a very subtle difference in the clips, MPEG Streamclip being about 2-3% darker on output. That's easy to fix in the settings on MPEG Streamclip. That sort of adjustment doesn't even slow it down any.
The timecode uses actual camera recording time, which is always interesting to have. I'm sure once MPEG Streamclip gets bought by someone, they'll add it in. Really they should charge for such a great product. Signore Cinque deserves to make some money on this.



Zoom in on a frame of each and you will also notice the "jaggies" are more pronounced with streamclip and Neo-HD when compared to Pro-res. The pro res clip looks cleaner overall, and sharper.

I will agree thought that streamclip is a great piece of software, but if you already purchased FCP, its not neccesary, nor the best choice (IMO)

Edited by gbrandon, 21 March 2010 - 01:18 PM.


#23 TheRealDrew

TheRealDrew

    Humpback Whale

  • Moderator
  • 2854 posts

Posted 21 March 2010 - 01:29 PM

Really they should charge for such a great product. Signore Cinque deserves to make some money on this.


+1 on that.

#24 echeng

echeng

    The Blue

  • Admin
  • 5842 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Francisco, CA
  • Interests:photography, ice cream, cello, chamber music, quadcopters

Posted 21 March 2010 - 01:38 PM

Im not sure why people are so caught up in the speed game anyway. We spend all this money for the best quality of video, yet we compromise quality for speed in editing or transferring? Doesent make sense to me.

I only care about speed when I'm in the field. At home, I do it the proper way.

I tend to organize using native H.264 and don't transcode to ProRes until I've weeded out all the stuff I don't care about.
eric cheng
publisher/editor, wetpixel
www | journal | photos


#25 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 21 March 2010 - 08:55 PM

Zoom in on a frame of each and you will also notice the "jaggies" are more pronounced with streamclip and Neo-HD when compared to Pro-res. The pro res clip looks cleaner overall, and sharper.

Interesting. I checked my test clip which has quite a bit of straight lines and didn't find the streamclip to have extra aliasing compared to the plug-in. I'll try view it on the 55" and when I get back home have it tossed on the production monitor.
Are you comparing the clips in FCP or using QT player? If you are viewing in FCP, you also have to change the field dominance to "none" for the streamclip clip, as it will add aliasing in a 1080p sequence with the upper dominance default MPEG Streamclip uses. Just a flaw that MPEG Streamclip has.
Just for kicks I did a quick search online on various methods and not surprisingly found that views weren't universal but one stood out:
http://xrl.us/bg2gg3
Seems this person thinks the Reds are bleeding with Compressor. Which is plausible seeing that Apple reads color space at 0-235. I guess this needs to be tested more but I won't bother :)
Also another thing to consider is the archived files. If the archives don't have the .thm and other data from the camera, the plug-in won't work without messing to trick it. So it's not a feasible solution for the first 1.3 years of clips captured WITHOUT this plug-in. I thought they'd have figured a way to do this. So capturing .img/iso of the CF seems to be the best way to archive.

Im not sure why people are so caught up in the speed game anyway. We spend all this money for the best quality of video, yet we compromise quality for speed in editing or transferring? Doesent make sense to me.

There's obviously not just one way to do this and many people will have preferences based on their needs. A buddy tested ProRes vs DNXHD and he liked the Avid better. Another guy loves using Compressor to batch process into Pro Res over the plug-in, which once set to use 6 or more cores (depending on the speed of the cluster connection) is as fast or faster as the plug-in but no timecode again.
Quality aside, if the speed difference is 10-20%, I'd keep it in FCP for the proper time (actually it uses the metadata from the camera's own clock for timecode). However, with the limitations of the file directory requirements, the super slowdown speed (up to 100% slower than streamclip at times) it becomes an issue when you have multiple clips. If I have 2 hrs of rushes, that'd take up to 4 hours to convert with FCP and 2 or less with streamclip. So yes, it can make a huge difference in batch. Also the streamclip files are smaller by a few percent.
On the 5D2, a fast card may not make as much a difference as on the 1D4, where it can squeeze an extra frame or 2 in burst mode and clear the buffer faster. Now is that worth the price premium? That's up to the user. Download speed is important for those on location. Clearing the cards for the camera in multi-card shoots means fewer cards needed and less running around. Express Card readers are excellent for UDMA cards for that purpose. Just don't buy that Delkin one as it SUCKS!

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#26 gbrandon

gbrandon

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 March 2010 - 09:49 PM

Interesting. I checked my test clip which has quite a bit of straight lines and didn't find the streamclip to have extra aliasing compared to the plug-in. I'll try view it on the 55" and when I get back home have it tossed on the production monitor.
Are you comparing the clips in FCP or using QT player? If you are viewing in FCP, you also have to change the field dominance to "none" for the streamclip clip, as it will add aliasing in a 1080p sequence with the upper dominance default MPEG Streamclip uses. Just a flaw that MPEG Streamclip has.
Just for kicks I did a quick search online on various methods and not surprisingly found that views weren't universal but one stood out:
http://xrl.us/bg2gg3
Seems this person thinks the Reds are bleeding with Compressor. Which is plausible seeing that Apple reads color space at 0-235. I guess this needs to be tested more but I won't bother :)
Also another thing to consider is the archived files. If the archives don't have the .thm and other data from the camera, the plug-in won't work without messing to trick it. So it's not a feasible solution for the first 1.3 years of clips captured WITHOUT this plug-in. I thought they'd have figured a way to do this. So capturing .img/iso of the CF seems to be the best way to archive.

There's obviously not just one way to do this and many people will have preferences based on their needs. A buddy tested ProRes vs DNXHD and he liked the Avid better. Another guy loves using Compressor to batch process into Pro Res over the plug-in, which once set to use 6 or more cores (depending on the speed of the cluster connection) is as fast or faster as the plug-in but no timecode again.
Quality aside, if the speed difference is 10-20%, I'd keep it in FCP for the proper time (actually it uses the metadata from the camera's own clock for timecode). However, with the limitations of the file directory requirements, the super slowdown speed (up to 100% slower than streamclip at times) it becomes an issue when you have multiple clips. If I have 2 hrs of rushes, that'd take up to 4 hours to convert with FCP and 2 or less with streamclip. So yes, it can make a huge difference in batch. Also the streamclip files are smaller by a few percent.
On the 5D2, a fast card may not make as much a difference as on the 1D4, where it can squeeze an extra frame or 2 in burst mode and clear the buffer faster. Now is that worth the price premium? That's up to the user. Download speed is important for those on location. Clearing the cards for the camera in multi-card shoots means fewer cards needed and less running around. Express Card readers are excellent for UDMA cards for that purpose. Just don't buy that Delkin one as it SUCKS!


I was comparing the clips in FCP, at 100%, and didnt change the field dominance for the streamclip clip. If i go test again I will check this out. My testing was by no means thorough. Just my observation on a simple test, which was done in less than a hour. I'm sure more in depth testing could be done, but like you say on your comment on the apple color space, why bother. We could spend months testing various configuration that 99% of the people viewing the final product most likely wont notice the difference, but Im a stickler for details and probably spend more time than I should on sorting out the best method of doing things to get the best end result.

On the Delkin card, man, you hit the nail on the head there. I learned the hard way as well, I dont know how many times that POS crashed my mac laptop. I found it easier just to take my firewire reader with me and transfer that way. Did you end up buying another Express card CF reader? What brand did you settle with?

#27 gbrandon

gbrandon

    Lionfish

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:08 PM

The card has a directory structure of folders which Log & Transfer has to have in order to recognize the files. You have duplicated it by loading the folders into a first folder in your drive directory. That why it works with your method. However, backing up with dates or other directories screws this up. Especially if I don't want file directories with names and dates on the main directory of the drive.
Even Canon does not provide for an answer for its cameras. If, for example, you use MCU from Canon to download the .mov and still files separately, then it won't work if you customize names and folder sequence, even if it does copy the .thm files.
XDCAM EX, AVCHD, AVC-I and even P2 cards are similar like that. It's just a lazy way of writing the code to use the .thm files along with the actual media files.
Red is one which does not have this sort of limitation.


I think the folder structure its looking for is just the DCIM folder. I made a folder on my desktop called DCIM, then made a folder inside that called MARCH105D and then just copied the 100EOS5D folder contents from the cf card into the MARCH105D folder and it worked fine. Im assuming you can just keep making folders under the original DCIM folder and it would work fine. (eg, march10, april10, etc)

I still think the idea of just making image files via Disk Utility might be better, but im gonna try it both ways for awhile and see which I prefer.

Edited by gbrandon, 21 March 2010 - 10:09 PM.


#28 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 22 March 2010 - 12:04 AM

I was comparing the clips in FCP, at 100%, and didnt change the field dominance for the streamclip clip. If i go test again I will check this out.

That's likely the cause for the added aliasing. I noticed that before then realized MPEG Streamclip does that in the defaults (no progressive option). Then adding a clip that is flagged interlaced into a progressive sequence causes the aliasing. The speed of Streamclip comes also from the CPU usage. It uses up to 300% (3 cores) whereas FCP hardly breaks 200% for the transcoding. Compressor can be setup to use all cores but the segmenting and distribution slows it down so it'd be better for longer clips to regain the advantage.

I found it easier just to take my firewire reader with me and transfer that way. Did you end up buying another Express card CF reader? What brand did you settle with?

I just use a generic E34 card. Downloads at 30+MB/s is fast enough for now. I hear the new Lexar card is UDMA 6 and will hit past 100MB/s. If that's true, I'll probably go with that once my present generic card dies, and they do often the way I treat them.

I think the folder structure its looking for is just the DCIM folder. I made a folder on my desktop called DCIM, then made a folder inside that called MARCH105D and then just copied the 100EOS5D folder contents from the cf card into the MARCH105D folder and it worked fine. Im assuming you can just keep making folders under the original DCIM folder and it would work fine. (eg, march10, april10, etc)

I still think the idea of just making image files via Disk Utility might be better, but im gonna try it both ways for awhile and see which I prefer.

From what I see, it's the file directory order:
~/Volume/Maindirectoryfolder/DCIM/Camerafilefolder/camerafile + .thm
Mess with that order and it won't work. So as long as you keep this order, you can put as many folders with .mov files in the Camerafilefolder and it will read them all! So that's not a solution for multiple month/year archiving and retrieval of clips.
My own issue with making image disks is that sometimes I have magic lantern installed in the CF and it's a pain to have to throw it out each time. I think the FCP plug-in is great for notations on location, scenes etc since it's all in the interface. But using the FCP browser and doing it there is similar, if not a bit more difficult. Horses for courses.

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#29 sterlingz

sterlingz

    Moray Eel

  • Moderator
  • 98 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington DC

Posted 22 March 2010 - 08:30 AM

I think the folder structure its looking for is just the DCIM folder. I made a folder on my desktop called DCIM, then made a folder inside that called MARCH105D and then just copied the 100EOS5D folder contents from the cf card into the MARCH105D folder and it worked fine. Im assuming you can just keep making folders under the original DCIM folder and it would work fine. (eg, march10, april10, etc)


Thanks for all of the great info, everyone! I confirmed that as long as you have the directory structure DCIM/xxx5D, and kept the original .thm files, Log and Transfer will then recognize the clips to import. I went back into material I shot last year and just added subdirectories to my footage folders, and it's working great.

Personally, coming from a background of ingesting tape into FCP, the EOS plugin offers a more familiar workflow, and I really like it for that. I think I will use a process of copying the original directories, backing those up and then using the plugin to select only the portions of clips that I actually want to use in my edit.

One disappointment, I can't seem to find any reference to the original shooting data within FCP, such as ISO and aperture. The description of the original EOS FCP plugin from Glue Tools looked like it offered that.

#30 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:41 AM

Sterling you don't need to add xxx5D, any folder name will work as long as the order is intact and of course DCIM and .thm are in there.
I've been using the dates as folder name.
Shooting data is all in EXIF in the .thm file, but I think FCP doesn't bother importing that info in. One can write a script to import that data from the EXIF reader. Seriously though, most people won't care about that sort of thing so long as the shot is good on a scope. I guess the Sekonic UW Light meter should make a comeback now :)
MPEG Streamclip is able to trim clips and batch process them. It's less elegant than the Log & Transfer interface but it makes up for it with speed.
The interesting thing is that FCP uses only 2 cores for the transcoding, whereas the Streamclip uses up to 3 cores. All the meta data can be set up in a few minutes and importing into FCP is a few seconds. I guess when I get back, I'll do a video guide (I hate doing voice commentary) for an updated workflow choice... or wait for someone like Phil Bloom to do it and save me the time. I'm pretty sure someone has done it on Youtube! :)

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#31 johnso56

johnso56

    Sea Wasp

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 22 March 2010 - 12:41 PM

I wasn't able to log and transfer my .mov file from my folder in the hard disk to Apple ProRes 422 HQ
FCP couldn't recognize the file, even i have the .thm and .mov files in the folder.

The error message is...
"100EOS&D"(<===the folder) contains unsupported media or has an invalid directory structure. Please choose a folder whose directory structure matches supported media.

my setting:
FCP 6
the directory is volume/disk3/DCIM/100EOS5D (so that's what Drew said about the requirement..)
under the preference's source P2 plugin is P2 AVC-intra transcode to ProRes 422 HQ, AVCHD Plugin are AVCHD and AC-3 Audio to ProRes 422 and Matrix Stereo.

Please help me out. Thx

Edited by johnso56, 22 March 2010 - 12:51 PM.


#32 TheRealDrew

TheRealDrew

    Humpback Whale

  • Moderator
  • 2854 posts

Posted 22 March 2010 - 01:03 PM

I wasn't able to log and transfer my .mov file from my folder in the hard disk to Apple ProRes 422 HQ
FCP couldn't recognize the file, even i have the .thm and .mov files in the folder.

The error message is...
"100EOS&D"(<===the folder) contains unsupported media or has an invalid directory structure. Please choose a folder whose directory structure matches supported media.

my setting:
FCP 6
the directory is volume/disk3/DCIM/100EOS5D (so that's what Drew said about the requirement..)
under the preference's source P2 plugin is P2 AVC-intra transcode to ProRes 422 HQ, AVCHD Plugin are AVCHD and AC-3 Audio to ProRes 422 and Matrix Stereo.

Please help me out. Thx


Which OS are you running? According to the information it needs 10.6.2

#33 johnso56

johnso56

    Sea Wasp

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 22 March 2010 - 01:19 PM

Which OS are you running? According to the information it needs 10.6.2



I have 10.4.11 with G5 cpu, that's the reason. Thank you as u save my date and my producer almost piss off that i can't make it done (I guess it's the outdated computer's fault then) ^^
Thanks for your quick respond

Edited by johnso56, 22 March 2010 - 01:35 PM.