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#21 TheRealDrew

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:29 AM

(very selective quoting. apologies in advance)

Thats a crime here in the UK.............. :D



Could be worse, could be Spice Girls :guiness:

#22 TheRealDrew

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:36 AM

I don't consider what I do stealing and don't equate it to taking nails from a hardware store. Guess that's the basis of our disagreement.


That is the issue with IP rights, people do not equate them to property, so people who would not take nails from a hardware store (not meaning you, but in general) do not put IP rights on the same level.

I buy a CD and make a copy for my car or mp3 player. I don't consider this stealing either.


Arguably that is a permitted use as back-up or shifting of some kind. (Sort of Sony Betamax case, plus a slew of other things going on, have not looked recently at that line of law.)

Curious, does your opinion change if I never showed my videos on the internet ?


Mine does. If you are just putting Enya music on a DVD to show to your friends when they visit and are not putting it out there to show your wares, as it were, then it is not the same to me (not legally speaking, legally it is still wrong). One of the shortcomings of sites such as youtube, etc. is that people (not you, just generally) use them to violate copyright, though the sites do have some blanket licenses in place now (at least they did) to cover the use of music since it was so prevalent.

#23 Andy Morrison

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:19 PM

Ditto what TheRealDrew said. And copying a CD, or a movie, to put on an iPod or play in your car for PERSONAL use is permitted. Now if you take that copied movie and broadcast it then you are violating the copyright.

Ronscuba, suppose you were to take in a digital file of your favorite photo from a trip to be printed at the local photo store. You drop it off and come back a couple days later to pick it up. The girl behind the counter asks you if you'd mind signing another copy of the photo which she printed out because she liked it and wanted to hang it on her wall. What would you do? She didn't ask for permission mind you. And this isn't a hypothetical. It happened to me and I'd wager happens all the time. Would you happily sign the print and give it to her? Would it matter if she were going to hang it on the wall of her flat or in the store window?

#24 ronscuba

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:23 PM

I like the Spice Girls. They are pretty hot............I turn off the volume. :D

Edited by ronscuba, 17 September 2010 - 12:23 PM.


#25 TheRealDrew

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:26 PM

I like the Spice Girls. They are pretty hot............I turn off the volume. :D



Tell me what you want, what you really really want..... :guiness:

#26 TheRealDrew

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:28 PM

It happened to me and I'd wager happens all the time.



I had people take photos on the internet. I have said this before - take a photo, write some music, write some software, shoot some video and revisit the issue when someone takes it ....

#27 ronscuba

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:48 PM

Ditto what TheRealDrew said. And copying a CD, or a movie, to put on an iPod or play in your car for PERSONAL use is permitted. Now if you take that copied movie and broadcast it then you are violating the copyright.

Ronscuba, suppose you were to take in a digital file of your favorite photo from a trip to be printed at the local photo store. You drop it off and come back a couple days later to pick it up. The girl behind the counter asks you if you'd mind signing another copy of the photo which she printed out because she liked it and wanted to hang it on her wall. What would you do? She didn't ask for permission mind you. And this isn't a hypothetical. It happened to me and I'd wager happens all the time. Would you happily sign the print and give it to her? Would it matter if she were going to hang it on the wall of her flat or in the store window?



Interesting question. When you say sign the print you mean like "autograph" or something ? I would not autograph. Store window, yes I have a problem with it because it helps the store generate business. If she wanted to hang it in her flat I would not have a problem as long as she didn't try to sell it. I think there in lies the issue.

Does a musical artist really care I used their music for my vacation video and then share my video on the net ? I'd suspect they really don't care as long as I don't try to profit from it. But how can they guarantee that I or any other person out there will not try to profit from it ? They can't, so it's illegal to copy and broadcast for all purposes, profit or no profit.

I wonder if what Youtube is doing will be the future model. From what I understand, the artist or record company tells Youtube to mute the audio or create a link for purchase. Last I checked all of my videos on Youtube that have content ID, have a purchase link. Sounds like a win win situation.


If someone takes my video and puts it on their personal website, facebook page, I don't have a problem. If they try to make money off it or use it for promotional purposes then yes I have a problem. I'm not a hypocrite. I use commercial music in my videos, but I don't put copyright labels on my videos. I can't guarantee people don't steal my videos and use them for personal or profit use. I have had some companies ask for permission. I've both granted and denied requests depending on the situation.


Tell me what you want, what you really really want. Posh Spice is pretty hot. There was another one I liked, that I used to call Slutty Spice. I forgot her real spice name.

Edited by ronscuba, 17 September 2010 - 01:06 PM.


#28 Andy Morrison

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:34 PM

Interesting question. When you say sign the print you mean like "autograph" or something ? I would not autograph. Store window, yes I have a problem with it because it helps the store generate business. If she wanted to hang it in her flat I would not have a problem as long as she didn't try to sell it. I think there in lies the issue.


But that's not really the issue. It just doesn't matter if it's for profit or not. Stealing is stealing. Can I go to the local art museum and steal a painting from the wall, take it home and hang it? No. Can I steal a print of said painting and hang it at home? No, just because it isn't worth as much it's still not right. Bottom line is it still is against the law whether you agree with it or not. And to me, a person who makes a living as a photographer, I take offense to copyright theft. As long as people continue to to infringe on others rights then my profession is in even more trouble than it already is.

The Youtube example isn't really a win-win. It's more like the copyright holders are trying to salvage a bad situation. It'd be too cost prohibitive to go after everyone stealing their music so I'm guessing they're trying to do the best they can.

Unfortunately I think attitudes are unchangeable towards copyright infringement at this point and it will only get worse.

#29 SimonSpear

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:49 PM

From the U.S. Copyright Office - How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See FL 102, Fair Use, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians.

Granted this has been challenged before such as musicians sampling etc and this is from the U.S. Copyright Office so it may be different over there.

No matter what the distribution it's illegal in the case of re-distribution or publication. From my media law class years ago if more than two people see a body of work it's considered published no matter what the form. It seems to me if we as photographers are going to get upset when someone uses one of our photos without permission, no matter what the distribution, it's pretty hypocritical to use copyrighted music. I'm constantly amazed when people post their You Tube videos and slide shows with ripped off music and think there's nothing wrong with doing that, and in the same project post a copyright notice on their video/slide show. If you can't get permission find some royalty free music to use. There's plenty out there and some of it is pretty good.


I'm sorry Andy perhaps I misunderstand but are you suggesting that I am a hypocrite or that I use copyright material without permission? I've re-read your post a few times and I'm struggling to see any other meaning behind your words....

#30 TheRealDrew

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:55 PM

Does a musical artist really care I used their music for my vacation video and then share my video on the net ? I'd suspect they really don't care as long as I don't try to profit from it. .... They can't, so it's illegal to copy and broadcast for all purposes, profit or no profit.



Many artist do care alot where their music winds up. There are extensive provisions (depending on the artist) limiting what the record company and publisher can do with their recordings and compositions. The internet is the wild west, and things are taken. If an artist has enough juice, they can make waves. Ultimately things like the YouTube issue, which cause a big riff, was settled with the licensing scheme because, as Andy pointed out, trying to make the best out of a bad situation.





Tell me what you want, what you really really want. Posh Spice is pretty hot. There was another one I liked, that I used to call Slutty Spice. I forgot her real spice name.


Excuse me, I need to put an ice pick in my ear right now, the song is going round and round in my head. My fault for bringing the Spice Girls up of course. Maybe I should just blast Master of Puppets or something instead.....

As to id'ing a particular Spice Girl, I would have better luck trying to ID nudibranchs, which isn't going to happen either :D

#31 TheRealDrew

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:59 PM

I'm sorry Andy perhaps I misunderstand but are you suggesting that I am a hypocrite or that I use copyright material without permission? I've re-read your post a few times and I'm struggling to see any other meaning behind your words....



Bottom line is Simon that except for some exceptions that Andy cited, generally you cannot use copyrighted material. There are actually two things in play. There is the recording and then composition. You need permission from both the owner of the recording (the thing that is the sound) and also the person(s) who wrote the material... (U.S., U.K. may have slightly different rules). Practically there may be times where people do not care, or think it is cool, that someone is using their songs. But legally, no so much :D Pandora's Box was opened with the internet (Thank you Al Gore :guiness: ) and Napster and the rest. We are seeing an erosion of a right that is important to any of us who create....

#32 SimonSpear

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:05 PM

Bottom line is Simon that except for some exceptions that Andy cited, generally you cannot use copyrighted material. There are actually two things in play. There is the recording and then composition. You need permission from both the owner of the recording (the thing that is the sound) and also the person(s) who wrote the material...


Drew I never use copyright material without permission, which is why I'm a bit bemused and confused by what Andy is maybe, possibly or potentially suggesting. Hey its late here, so maybe I've got it wrong, but I would appreciate an explanation from him.

Cheers, Simon

#33 ronscuba

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:13 PM

But that's not really the issue. It just doesn't matter if it's for profit or not. Stealing is stealing. Can I go to the local art museum and steal a painting from the wall, take it home and hang it? No. Can I steal a print of said painting and hang it at home? No, just because it isn't worth as much it's still not right. Bottom line is it still is against the law whether you agree with it or not. And to me, a person who makes a living as a photographer, I take offense to copyright theft. As long as people continue to to infringe on others rights then my profession is in even more trouble than it already is.

The Youtube example isn't really a win-win. It's more like the copyright holders are trying to salvage a bad situation. It'd be too cost prohibitive to go after everyone stealing their music so I'm guessing they're trying to do the best they can.

Unfortunately I think attitudes are unchangeable towards copyright infringement at this point and it will only get worse.


I think we are pretty much set on different sides of this issue. Maybe me being a hobbyist and you being someone making a living as a photographer has something to do with it.

I know my opinions are shared by many other hobbyists. I wonder if there is a discussion on the net someplace where Bloom or some other well known industry people debated the topic.


"Choosing the right music is always a tough one. This is a personal project, not a paid job so I tend to use copyrighted music in it as itís not for financial gain for me. Very much a grey area but music labels are getting more relaxed about these things."

Edited by ronscuba, 17 September 2010 - 04:07 PM.


#34 bvanant

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:37 PM

Drew I never use copyright material without permission, which is why I'm a bit bemused and confused by what Andy is maybe, possibly or potentially suggesting. Hey its late here, so maybe I've got it wrong, but I would appreciate an explanation from him.

Cheers, Simon

I think Andy was answering the original post that suggested a limited clip might be OK to use. You chimed in that a limited Clash recording would cost a lot of money, but I don't think Andy was answering your post as much as the first one. In any case, this is a tough one; I have authored a bunch of IP (patents mostly) and I tend to not use copyrighted stuff very often and if I do it is only for limited, at home viewing.
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#35 peterbkk

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:10 PM

Even though you'd love to have some favourite song on your video, this is best avoided.

Have a look at a system called SonicFire 5. Royalty free music beds that can be tailored to match your video down to the frame level if necessary. You have a lot of control of how it sounds so your video does not sound like anyone elses. Big range of music types that can be bought by disk or downloaded as required. Even does vocal tracks. Integrates well with FCP. http://www.smartsound.com/sonicfire/

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#36 RWBrooks

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:18 PM

Hi,
Firstly thank you for all the feedback, this subject does raise some important issues over how we personally value other peoples work. It is true i have used copyrighted music on youtube/facebook but in all fairness it was more of a celebration of the music and visuals in combination, certainly not for profit. What's the difference from saying that I was inspired by someones music? We've seen this a few times already here...
The current film to which this thread is addressing is something different, it is something I intend to enter into film competitions and also it's meant for publication in a wider arena hence my desire to know the legal limits on the issue of music rights. The rest of the film contains music from Soundtrack/Garage Band etc so no problems there and it was only one late night as I was sitting there listening to some Sting that the idea popped in my head to experiment with using a short section as an intro.
I will contact Sting's music label and I will ask because as they say"nothing ventured......."
I do not intend to rip off Sting I would like to have his blessings to use what i think is a particularly fitting piece of music given the context of the film.

It is particularly timely and ironic that I have just flicked through the 3rd quarter of The Undersea Journal, and on page 57 I find one of my photos. OK, so the photo is with a variety of stock agencies and I probably received royalties for it's use and I get credits on the page but the picture is used to advertise a competitor's dive shop.....

Can't have it both ways I guess!

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#37 Andy Morrison

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:15 PM

I'm sorry Andy perhaps I misunderstand but are you suggesting that I am a hypocrite or that I use copyright material without permission? I've re-read your post a few times and I'm struggling to see any other meaning behind your words....


Sorry but I'm not suggesting any such thing. And to be honest I'm not sure why I quoted your post in my reply, other than you stated -"If it is low distribution you could probably get away with using copyright material, but technically speaking you'd be leaving yourself wide open legally. " Again, my apologies if you took my post the wrong way. I was just trying to suppy some info and maybe it came off wrong. I have one month old twins so I'm not sleeping much, and maybe not making much sense. :D

#38 Andy Morrison

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:23 PM

I think we are pretty much set on different sides of this issue. Maybe me being a hobbyist and you being someone making a living as a photographer has something to do with it.

I know my opinions are shared by many other hobbyists. I wonder if there is a discussion on the net someplace where Bloom or some other well known industry people debated the topic.


"Choosing the right music is always a tough one. This is a personal project, not a paid job so I tend to use copyrighted music in it as itís not for financial gain for me. Very much a grey area but music labels are getting more relaxed about these things."


Well we certainly are on different sides of this issue, and I dare say I'm on the side of the law. Profit has less to do with it than publishing or broadcast. And music labels may be getting more relaxed about prosecuting but that doesn't make the area grey.

#39 ronscuba

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:02 PM

Just to be clear, I did not write it. I found that on a blog of a well known industry director of photography.

I posted it because I agree with the statement and to show the opinion is not just limited to hobbyists.

#40 Drew

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:51 PM

(very selective quoting. apologies in advance)

Thats a crime here in the UK.............. :D

Hey, her Clannad days made for some cool music. And I heard even the hardest core metalhead have Orinocco Flow somewhere in their ipod. :guiness:

Well we certainly are on different sides of this issue, and I dare say I'm on the side of the law. Profit has less to do with it than publishing or broadcast. And music labels may be getting more relaxed about prosecuting but that doesn't make the area grey.

The grey area, as it were, is in the enforcement, isn't it? I know a band who sold their music online directly, gave listeners a choice of to pay or not, then later resold the same material on itunes once it became popular. Their T&C was cloudy and the song was passed along as a free song on the internet.
The music labels make it grey because they like the publicity that goes with virus marketing like Bloom's shorts or TV trailer placements. Neither are preauthorized but obviously very easy to target legally. All of the music industry guys (including the artists) I've spoken to are also ambiguous about this. The marketing promotion/publicity aspect is appreciated in the wallet, but technically is illegal. If the owners of the copyright are ambiguous in enforcement, then the public will interpret their inaction as a licence to use. Sorta like jaywalking, which is illegal and hardly enforced unless you get a police trap for jaywalkers (yes they do exist!)

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