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Red Scarlet shifts direction toward professionals.


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#1 Drew

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 02:03 AM

After many months of delays and features set changes, Red's Jim Jannard has stated Red is forgoing volume sales and concentrate on professionals only with the Scarlet DSMC. Prices have gone up another $1000 as HDRx sensors (promising 18 stops of dynamic range) and other features are added.

Here's Jim on the Scarlet price change:

We have decided to add $1000 to the price of Scarlet and include HDRx™ capability. The extra money will go to more boards and another ASIC plus development. The improvement is more than worth the effort. The image possibilities and capability are incredible.


On why there is a price change:

We have made the mistake... or not, of talking to our customers as we have gone along. Things change... especially since we have an open dialog with our customers. Technology advances and opportunities arise. We have said clearly that "everything is subject to change".
As we add more capability to our program, prices have risen. At the same time, we have added many features at no extra cost. Go figure.


On the shift of Scarlet towards the higher end "professional" market

We thought we might get into the "volume" business... but we realized we cater to professionals.


On why the products were so delayed:

Why is RED so late releasing EPIC and Scarlet?

1. We had no idea what we were doing.

2. This is as difficult a trick as anyone could possibly pull off. 5K/120fps on a postage stamp has never been done before by anyone, let alone by a new company that has no idea what they were doing and no library of information.

3. Engineers are optimistic. They think they can do stuff faster than is reasonable. And they tell us dates that they can't make.

4. Stuff changes. We have added capabilities along the way the complicated the process. This is a disruption to the program and adds time to process.

5. Nothing works like it is supposed to. The amount of boards and lines of code needed for this project are not comprehensible. Everything needs to be done several times to get it right.


What does it all mean? Basically Red cut out a niche for itself with the Red One by supplying higher than 2K resolution cameras in a market where HD to 2k to 4k cameras had very well defined price and feature levels. They tried to do the same with the Scarlet for the ViDSLR market, where there isn't a compact, higher than HD resolution interchangeable lens camera at all, much less under $10k. Every business model that wants to make serious money need a volume seller where sheer volume make up for lower margins. The Scarlet was suppose to be that. Jannard and company just realized that their envisioned "volume" product wouldn't be competitive at the price they could make it at.
The competition haven't sat still either with Panasonic just releasing the GH2. Nikon also recently moved to 1080p with their range. Then of course the new darlings of DPs, Canon's range with the wide (and widening) appeal of 5D2,1D4 and 7D (and of course the soon to be announced 1Ds4 (Sorry no spoilers here! :D ) and the flurry of lenses and accessories available. All these cameras announced before the prototype of the Scarlet was even publicly displayed. No wonder they shifted.
The market for 2k+ resolution cameras is very small. Canon's own video division, with no products to protect other than the X series camcorders and the ENG lenses, can afford to push the boundary a little more. Panasonic and Sony, on the other, have the big production camera divisions to protect, and hence they are holding back with the codec and feature set.
If Scarlet can produce a 18 stop camera for under $10k, it'll still be a great product, especially for underwater. However, in trying to beat the volume players, who have years of experience and the human power to produce products at an annual pace or even faster, Jannard and company tried to bite off more than they could even fathom. And with their "open discussion" corporate culture, it's a very vocal shift in product placement, as opposed to the tight-lipped and secret Japanese companies. It's not a failure but just a product repositioning.

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#2 Long John Silver

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 02:52 PM

It sounds like the end of a dream?

Jim Jannard admits defeat against DSLRs, says Scarlet was a mistake

bye

#3 jonny shaw

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 03:43 PM

It sounds like the end of a dream?

Jim Jannard admits defeat against DSLRs, says Scarlet was a mistake

bye


Very interesting,

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#4 DeanB

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 10:43 PM

Well, as Drew's thread say's he is upping the price to cater to 'professionals'? More like to get more money as the 'dream' slowly drifts away thus making him more like the larger companies he tried to defeat.

Nice try though

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#5 loftus

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 02:29 AM

From a competitive standpoint it's really unfortunate; because one thing I was hoping RED would force the big boys like Canon and Nikon to do was to bring modular systems to market.
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#6 Drew

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 03:41 AM

Reid's article reads like he doesn't like Red and what it represents. While Red's failure to produce any of their products on time and at the price advertised does not reflect well as a company, one should look at the specs of the camera before judging. Factoring in a 2/3" sensor camera at $4750+ $1000 price hike, capable of shooting 120fps at 3k, 18 stops of dynamic range in a small package, makes for a very convincing package for the prosumer. Even at the old price of $3750, it was never an every person's camera for the masses. Should it be delivered on time, it will still be the ONLY camera capable of 120fps, with a RAW codec @ 100mbps.
Looking at the XF305, it's a fixed 1/3" CMOS camcorder with 50mbps 4:2:2 and that's priced at $7999. It can only do 29.97 at 1080p. That's the closest competitor in camcorder. The AG-AF100 shoots 4:2:0 24mbps AVCHD albeit at 1080p/60, so even if it has a 4/3" sensor and interchangeable lenses, it's not going to be as desireable as a ViDSLR like the 5D2 have the a 4:2:0 H.264 codec at 40+mbps. Even if one uses an external device to capture from HDMI at 100mbps 4:2:2 (the AG-AF100 has HD-SDI), it will be still more expensive and bulkier than the Scarlet. Red Code Raw is 4:4:4. Based on specs alone, paying $5750 for a 4:4:4 120fps 3k camera isn't all that expensive. It's unfortunate Mr Reid can't see the positives of such a camera.

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#7 jonny shaw

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 01:11 PM

Reid's article reads like he doesn't like Red and what it represents. While Red's failure to produce any of their products on time and at the price advertised does not reflect well as a company, one should look at the specs of the camera before judging. Factoring in a 2/3" sensor camera at $4750+ $1000 price hike, capable of shooting 120fps at 3k, 18 stops of dynamic range in a small package, makes for a very convincing package for the prosumer. Even at the old price of $3750, it was never an every person's camera for the masses. Should it be delivered on time, it will still be the ONLY camera capable of 120fps, with a RAW codec @ 100mbps.
Looking at the XF305, it's a fixed 1/3" CMOS camcorder with 50mbps 4:2:2 and that's priced at $7999. It can only do 29.97 at 1080p. That's the closest competitor in camcorder. The AG-AF100 shoots 4:2:0 24mbps AVCHD albeit at 1080p/60, so even if it has a 4/3" sensor and interchangeable lenses, it's not going to be as desireable as a ViDSLR like the 5D2 have the a 4:2:0 H.264 codec at 40+mbps. Even if one uses an external device to capture from HDMI at 100mbps 4:2:2 (the AG-AF100 has HD-SDI), it will be still more expensive and bulkier than the Scarlet. Red Code Raw is 4:4:4. Based on specs alone, paying $5750 for a 4:4:4 120fps 3k camera isn't all that expensive. It's unfortunate Mr Reid can't see the positives of such a camera.


Exactly my thoughts Drew, even looking at Epic it is still a bargain for the specs and performance. And I'm sure RED have pushed all other manufacturers to implement higher spec cams than they possibly would have previously.

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#8 TheRealDrew

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 01:34 PM

Should it be delivered on time,


^_^ Wasn't that the end of 2008 and 2009 and....... :D

Yeah the specs are great and if it was out before I would have shot it, and very well would shoot it if it comes out. But it is the same story, "we are adding more so cannot release it and prices are going up."

http://wetpixel.com/...showtopic=24785

http://wetpixel.com/...showtopic=24061

http://www.scarletus...21391#post21391

#9 Drew

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 10:44 PM

Well the point is the corporate culture differences. With the big boys, we chat about what we wish they'd add with each iteration and then are completely surprised with what comes out.
The Red business model is different. Completely open specs and what's coming is no real secret. So there's a lot more to yak about and definitely more to gripe about. I've never liked the hype that came with Red. I've said so many times. When there is a real release of a finished product, then I get excited.
Is the open culture with continually missed deadlines a bad business model? It's never good to miss delivery dates. But then again, how many 2k+ resolution cameras are out there for under $70k, much less $10k? Dalsa wrapped up the cinema division 2 years ago and it was not under 100k.
I think Red is now trying to get the Scarlet to be superior to what is coming from competitors in the next 6-9 mths (and it's going to be NICE!), while avoiding the beta camera stigma of Red One. Look at how the Red One has evolved over the last 3 years, but the 2 years of firmware releases to deal with this and that didn't really inspire. Then suddenly, it was Epic and Mysterium X sensor upgrade time already. It goes to show how fast technology goes and how slow product development is.
Look at Nikon. Here is a company with no video division to protect and could literally release at least a ViDSLR that would beat up the competition. But the lack of expertise and R&D makes it very difficult, much less redesign the DSLR to be modular, out perform the competition and stay under a certain price. The problem is the majority of people only hear the hype, without knowing the realities of manufacturing such products and the timeline it takes to achieve these products.
Furthermore, with the hype reaching stratospheric proportions, there will always be detractors. How does one get bitter about a camera that's not released even? There's no need to get worked up either way for a product that isn't released yet. 3k for $4k will happen in the future, just not so soon.

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#10 Long John Silver

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 12:23 AM

Is the open culture with continually missed deadlines a bad business model? It's never good to miss delivery dates. But then again, how many 2k+ resolution cameras are out there for under $70k, much less $10k? Dalsa wrapped up the cinema division 2 years ago and it was not under 100k.
I think Red is now trying to get the Scarlet to be superior to what is coming from competitors in the next 6-9 mths (and it's going to be NICE!), while avoiding the beta camera stigma of Red One. Look at how the Red One has evolved over the last 3 years, but the 2 years of firmware releases to deal with this and that didn't really inspire. Then suddenly, it was Epic and Mysterium X sensor upgrade time already. It goes to show how fast technology goes and how slow product development is.


Today the Time to Market has shrunk so much that only few players can substain it.
While the always beta mantra has proven to be a business model in some software/web market I'm not so convinced on this market.
This year a new compact digital camera for an indie cameraman (40,000 Euros +) was thrown in the market and although it's still a prototype, its seems to overwhelm in some way the RedOne:

http://www.arridigit...om/HabemusPapum

Here a side by side comparison:

http://bit.ly/alWqIC

Inside the digital edition of HD Magazine the same article with more in depth explanations and hi res photos:

http://emag2a.pressm....aspx?issue=932

So, leaving apart the never born Scarlet, now, also on their top model RedOne they have a concurrent on the same price level.

Bye

#11 SimonSpear

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 01:06 AM

I'd still buy it if I have not bought something else by the time it finally becomes available and that's the problem RED face. They announce, they develop, they get delayed and in the meantime their competition gets a bit closer with their products, so RED have to re-spec, re-announce etc etc...

On things for sure - if RED/Scarlet had never existed then we wouldn't have the cameras that we have today, let alone what may be coming out tomorrow, but as someone who's been waiting for Scarlet for a few years now it is very frustrating! I was around 50% optimistic that Scarlet would ever see the light of day before this announcement, now I'm probably down to 35% and its dropping all the time with the probability of Canon or Sony getting my money increasing by the day.

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#12 Drew

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 11:54 AM

Today the Time to Market has shrunk so much that only few players can substain it.
While the always beta mantra has proven to be a business model in some software/web market I'm not so convinced on this market.
This year a new compact digital camera for an indie cameraman (40,000 Euros +) was thrown in the market and although it's still a prototype, its seems to overwhelm in some way the RedOne:
So, leaving apart the never born Scarlet, now, also on their top model RedOne they have a concurrent on the same price level.

It's to be expected that a product that is released 1-2 years after an older product would be better. And while the Alexa has improvements over the Red in workflow etc, it's not at all an outright win. The Red Mx has a few things going for it.
1. Resolution: Anyone shooting for CG will use the Red since Dalsa is out. Genesis, Sony and Arri are all 2k and for CG you want 4k. That's why POTC4 is being shot in 3D with Red MX.
2. 120fps at 2k resolution.

There's lots to like about the Alexa (btw, the Alexa has been shipping for a couple of months now and no longer a prototype). The output is gorgeous. Pro Res 444 to SxS cards.
However, in the ever changing world of technology, Epic X is due out next year (maybe :)). Now that's a 5k @96fps (250fps @ 2k) FF35mm sensor with HDRx. So that'll jump over the Arri again. That's the great thing about advancement, it doesn't stay still. Hence that's what drives the economy... demand. :)

I'd still buy it if I have not bought something else by the time it finally becomes available and that's the problem RED face. They announce, they develop, they get delayed and in the meantime their competition gets a bit closer with their products, so RED have to re-spec, re-announce etc etc...

On things for sure - if RED/Scarlet had never existed then we wouldn't have the cameras that we have today, let alone what may be coming out tomorrow, but as someone who's been waiting for Scarlet for a few years now it is very frustrating! I was around 50% optimistic that Scarlet would ever see the light of day before this announcement, now I'm probably down to 35% and its dropping all the time with the probability of Canon or Sony getting my money increasing by the day.

I agree that the mark shifts with every release of new technology. I'm pretty sure Red would do pretty well with a Scarlet without HDRx if they release it right now. However I don't think it'd be very profitable since it'd be only the fixed lens that would sell the most. This reposition doesn't mean that they won't try to reenter to volume market again later.

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#13 jonny shaw

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 01:43 PM

I will also be interested to see what the housing guys do regarding Epic and Scarlet as there could be a strong possibility due to the modular system that housings will fit both, which would be a massive bonus.

I was never that keen on the fixed lens Scarlet anyway and the FF and S35 were still going to be a way off anyway. Still using my Canon A1 and 7D I can still invest in good glass for the 7D which in the long run will / can be used on whatever Canon / Red / etc bring out.

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#14 Drew

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 11:11 PM

The issues with housings will be a bit more tricky. I think the wisest way to deal with a modular system that goes grows backwards is to have interchangeable rears for different set ups. The Pro REDMOTE will be tricky, if it's the same one as on the Epic.

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#15 loftus

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 03:54 AM

I don't pretend to understand all this; but from a business perspective you think RED is possibly being positioned for a buyout by one of the big boys
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#16 Drew

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:41 PM

As announced by Jim Jannard last week, Scarlet S35 sensor is now going to be called Epic Light, with additional features added and price increase:
Red announces Epic Light (Scarlet S35)

The 2/3" Scarlet will stay the same.... for now.

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#17 TheRealDrew

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:52 PM

As announced by Jim Jannard last week, Scarlet S35 sensor is now going to be called Epic Light, with additional features added and price increase:


:D

But I still want one :P

#18 SimonSpear

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:19 AM

:D

But I still want one :P



It's actually pretty disturbing reading that Red forum. I mean Scarlet is like 10 years late and what's the reaction to the latest changes/cancellation/price change/who knows what?

"Well done RED"
"whoo hooo great news RED"
"RED does it again! I bet all you AF-100 fanbois are jealous!!"

Creepy. Really creepy. But I still want one too!! :P

Cheers, Simon

#19 HDVdiver

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 05:55 PM

It's actually pretty disturbing reading that Red forum. I mean Scarlet is like 10 years late and what's the reaction to the latest changes/cancellation/price change/who knows what?

"Well done RED"
"whoo hooo great news RED"
"RED does it again! I bet all you AF-100 fanbois are jealous!!"

Creepy. Really creepy. But I still want one too!! :D

Cheers, Simon



Haha...great marketing strategy...

Meanwhile J.J. just bought himself a lovely Fijian island...not sure if Scarlet users will be invited...

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Edited by HDVdiver, 03 December 2010 - 06:08 PM.


#20 Drew

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:47 PM

Haha...great marketing strategy...

Meanwhile J.J. just bought himself a lovely Fijian island...not sure if Scarlet users will be invited...


You do know that Jim was a billionaire way before Red was conceived. This is partially a labor of love for him... and it shows. He's not throwing money away but it's obviously not a real money maker like Oakley. Fanboys are something every brand would pray for and he has real professionals and top industry people supporting the brand. No brand is perfect but as marketing and brand loyalty goes in the movie industry, Red is doing a lot better than all the others, all fighting for a piece of the pie.

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