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Sony PMW-F3


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#21 DeanB

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 01:25 AM

Challenging with knowledge and logic is one thing, chip on the shoulder without any basis is just plain... well... I'd consider banning his blog here too just for the drivel but we have drivellers here too often to do that. :)


I totally agree with that Drew I've stopped using a lot of forums as certain members only seem to use it for boasting and feeding their ego's!!! the 'look at me types' who have loads of gear, travel everywhere yet only shoot, well, basically holiday video's, then go on to criticise other members lower priced camera's and abilities. As an eminent cameraman once said to me when I spoke to him about it " well Dean you can give any MONKEY a camera"... Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong in holiday video's (i have done a few) however certain peeps seem to go on like their something special... Drives me mad

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#22 HDVdiver

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 01:52 AM

My biggest apprehension about the F3 and some of the other supposedly Pro level cameras is that they are still using CMOS sensors with rolling shutters. From a manufacturing point of view this makes sense since CMOS advances/advantages are coming from the still camera industry. The problem is, while excellent for still cameras current generation CMOS chips aren't really up to the task for all types of pro video aquisition...largely due to jello/skew and lighting artefacts.

Skew/jello is less of an issue for underwater videographers (except for macro work). Rolling shutter artefacts are a real pain when other divers in the picture are shooting with strobes. Even RED footage can be easily ruined in these circumstances. This is where the old CCD's of the F900 and most recent JVC's are still an advantage (but not so good in other ways).

For someone like myself who shots topside documentary (wildlife) using long focal length lenses, the jello artefacts of rolling shutter CMOS is a nightmare. The bigger the CMOS chip the worse the problem. Panasonic and Sony (and RED and Arri) keep tweeking their sensors and the way the info is read off the CMOS to reduce the problem...but it's still noticeable. Still there on the AF100. Horrific on the vidDSLRs including the smaller M4/3 sized GH13.

From a purely personal requirements perspective I would happliy spend $10k to $20k on a Pro camera that had a Global Shutter CMOS...but I quess that'll have to wait for a while yet. :)

#23 SimonSpear

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 03:35 AM

Dean(Sorry all, rant over)B



Feel better now? :)

#24 Drew

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 03:53 AM

Yes well, anyone using CMOS sensors to shoot a helicopter's blades rotating (or any fast moving object) either have directors who don't care that the blades are bent or should be fired. :)
I'm not really surprised global shutter CMOS, hasn't made it to the masses anytime soon. Dalsa, for one, makes them and they aren't exorbitant. Last I checked the Falcon was under $6k.... well then you have to get the right capture equipment etc etc :)
But then again, rolling shutter can be controlled. look at how the Phantom HD manages... albeit it is a 100k camera. It can change the "shutter" sampling to manage as shutter speed and it's specialized for high speed capture.
I do think rolling shutter skew concerns are only an issue in specialized shots and thus over-exaggerated. An experienced DP should know what camera to use for what situation and if the budget can't carry it, then they'd have to shoot around the weaknesses of the camera they have and/or live with the shortcomings.

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#25 DeanB

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 04:43 AM

Feel better now? :)


Yes thanks mate ... :)

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#26 SimonSpear

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 10:23 AM

I'd consider banning his blog here too just for the drivel but we have drivellers here too often to do that. :)


Drew I think you've just managed to successfully insult 99% of the forum with that comment! :)

#27 DeanB

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 10:56 AM

Drew I think you've just managed to successfully insult 99% of the forum with that comment! :)


There's a self appointed hierarchy in many forums and just because someone 'knows' more than others on certain subjects doesn't make them better than the next person which is exactly the same when it comes to equipment owned (I remember people ribbing me on my A1 purchase a few years ago, although I did pretty well off the back of that little camera). This was one reason I left other forums, I never made comments just read others and decided it wasn't for me, to many self appointed snobs... Being a Brit I'm used to the P*ss taking, sarcasm and Irony although some of my comments don't travel across the pond very well and I have apologised to peeps if they took it to heart.

Why can't we all just get along :)

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#28 HDVdiver

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 03:50 PM

I do think rolling shutter skew concerns are only an issue in specialized shots and thus over-exaggerated. An experienced DP should know what camera to use for what situation and if the budget can't carry it, then they'd have to shoot around the weaknesses of the camera they have and/or live with the shortcomings.


Yes, rolling shutter artefacts are only an issue in specialized shots...but if one tends to do a lot of such specialized work the problem is far from an exaggeration. As I said, fortunately for UW work the main issue is half-frame exposures and "scan disruption" caused by flashes going off. Unintended flashes can be avoided...but if the subject is another UW photog with strobes, well the rolling shutter doesn't cope very well. I try to get around this if possible by having the "subject" use a powerful continous light. Not always controllable...eg liveaboards when a Mola Mola turns up...

Trying to shoot video of wildlife on land with an long tele (300mm - 800mm) and wobbly CMOS imager is another matter. Not too many ways around that. After several weeks in Sri Lanka trying, I quietly sold my Canon 5D2 bodies when I got back (not that the GH13 is that much better). Sure, we still have to live with the shortcomings...but my point is the manufacturers seem to be happy for us to do so. VidDSLR's are supercheap and great in so many ways I can live with their shortcomings. But I'd certainly expect better from "Pro" cameras costing 10x more. Global shutter CMOS is an available technology (eg sCMOS and Dalsa as used in the scientific/industrial world). I guess PanaSony will consumerize them when their marketing departments decide its time...:)

...and to see that CMOS wobble isn't just about fast motion and helicopter blades have a look at:



Difference between 3CCD and 3CMOS...vibration and motion effects:


Edited by HDVdiver, 25 November 2010 - 04:14 PM.


#29 Drew

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:40 PM

Panasonic makes CCD cameras like the HPX3000 which is fully broadcast BBC accepted and is usually the choice of the NHU crowd for that reason (AVC-I and others also included). Shooting surfers with the 5D2/7D on 800mm on a tripod has been done. Off the top of my head, Laforet did one. So it's not impossible to shoot telephoto with ViDSLR on a moving object, provided you have a very sturdy tripod and a good lens.

Flash disruption of scanners is 1 or 2 frames. Just white out in post and even leave it. Most people who want CMOS sensors live with that shortcoming or switch to CCD for media events with lots of flash.

Using a ViDSLR as a car-cam without stabilization is just trying to prove something we all know exists and have to deal with. There's really nothing left to discuss except on either how to avoid it or deal with it in post.

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#30 Nick Hope

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 06:59 PM

"white out"? :)

#31 Drew

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 08:30 PM

Cheap and hokey trick of overexposing problem frames.

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#32 DeanB

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 01:04 AM

"white out"? :)



Come on Nick, keep up... :) Seen that effect a few times on programmes and wondered how it's done...

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#33 Nick Hope

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 10:43 PM

"hokey"? :D

#34 SimonSpear

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 01:19 AM

I'm lost.....

#35 DeanB

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 02:17 AM

I'm lost.....



M25??? ;)

I used to call it the Nuclear blast wipe... Just overexpose your frame and use that (If you want) to cut to the next scene... Or am I thinking of the wrong thing :D

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#36 Drew

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 01:06 PM

One other option is to use the Flash Banding Removal Tool in the Sony Clip Browser software. I think it only works with 50/60i and not 24/25/30/60p.

I do remember in one of the briefings for Panny cameras that they have a built in flash band detection engine which minimizes flash bands. This is only in the HPX series I believe.

Post correction of flash banding isn't hard at all, just boring if you are covering a runway shoot or the red carpet at some event. Underwater, you can hopefully avoid strobes or at the worst, accidently help the strobe guys to leave the battery out of the strobe :D

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#37 jonny shaw

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 03:22 PM

The birger mount would be pretty cool on this camera too as you could use the Tokina 11-16 plus all your other Canon lenses etc which would be cheaper than buying the three primes.

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#38 HDVdiver

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 04:01 PM

Underwater, you can hopefully avoid strobes or at the worst, accidently help the strobe guys to leave the battery out of the strobe ;)



Haha...pointing my HID50's into his mask usually does the trick...:D

#39 Drew

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 10:55 PM

The birger mount would be pretty cool on this camera too as you could use the Tokina 11-16 plus all your other Canon lenses etc which would be cheaper than buying the three primes.


I've worked with the Birger mount on a Red One. It's a nice piece of hardware. Has there been one announced for the F3k? I thought they had trouble making them for Sony because of propriety issues?

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#40 jonny shaw

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 11:35 PM

I just thought it worked on any PL mount... I haven't heard anything I just thought it would automatically work.

Fingers crossed,

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