115 replies to this topic

[Timmoranuk]

Tell me its not April 1st...

http://english.ahram...-behind-sh.aspx

There's more:

http://blogs.news.sk...ee-c72a5845f2a8

Edited by Timmoranuk, 07 December 2010 - 06:37 AM.

[Drew]

You'd be very surprised how many conspiracy theories come about when things happen in a "hot" zone. It's always someone, if not human then it's aliens or little gremlins. Seems to be a coping mechanism to handle the seemingly unfathomable, at least for those who buy into it. Trained mutant piranhas up next... in 3D... oh wait that's been done!

The good news is that diving is going to reopen, although I fail to see how the number of dives is a factor in jumping into the sea when it's the operators who should be controlling the group and whether to get out or not depending on the danger.

[DuncanS]

You'd be very surprised how many conspiracy theories come about when things happen in a "hot" zone. It's always someone, if not human then it's aliens or little gremlins. Seems to be a coping mechanism to handle the seemingly unfathomable, at least for those who buy into it. Trained mutant piranhas up next... in 3D... oh wait that's been done!

The good news is that diving is going to reopen, although I fail to see how the number of dives is a factor in jumping into the sea when it's the operators who should be controlling the group and whether to get out or not depending on the danger.

The shark will ask to see your logbook first......

[ralphy]

The good news is that diving is going to reopen, although I fail to see how the number of dives is a factor in jumping into the sea when it's the operators who should be controlling the group and whether to get out or not depending on the danger.

The 50+ rule is used in the Red Sea for dive sites that are deemed potentially challenging for less experienced divers - and which includes the ones that have been sanctioned by the latest CDWS bulletin.

The shark will ask to see your logbook first......

R

[londonsean69]

The good news is that diving is going to reopen, although I fail to see how the number of dives is a factor in jumping into the sea when it's the operators who should be controlling the group and whether to get out or not depending on the danger.

I 'believe' some of it also comes down to how divers 'might' react underwater. A diver with a few logged dives might be more inclined to react calmly upon seeing a shark. The average newbee may well make a splash about it (pun intended) and any resulting thrashing could incite said shark.
That's only my opinion, and has about as much scientific basis behind it as the Mossad claims:)

Either way, the shark has to get through my camera before it gets to me:D

[Christian K]

I 'believe' some of it also comes down to how divers 'might' react underwater. A diver with a few logged dives might be more inclined to react calmly upon seeing a shark. The average newbee may well make a splash about it (pun intended) and any resulting thrashing could incite said shark.
That's only my opinion, and has about as much scientific basis behind it as the Mossad claims:)

Either way, the shark has to get through my camera before it gets to me:D

The reason for the regulation is that inexperienced divers are much more likely to spend time on the surface, increasing the risk if you have oceanic sharks in the vicinity.

Edited by Christian K, 07 December 2010 - 08:41 PM.

[Drew]

Either way, the shark has to get through my camera before it gets to me:D

You can only block whatever is coming at you if you can see it in your limited FOV through your mask. The rest of the time, the shark is looking at you from behind... unless you are a Jedi, kungfu master or Mossad trained of course.

[DuncanS]

You can only block whatever is coming at you if you can see it in your limited FOV through your mask. The rest of the time, the shark is looking at you from behind... unless you are a Jedi, kungfu master or Mossad trained of course.

Finally an admission that they are out of their depth....

http://www.almasryal...d-shark-attacks

[Timmoranuk]

Here's an intelligent resume of the situation by James Lea. The media would do well to talk to him...

http://saveourseas.c..._in_perspective

[DuncanS]

Here's an intelligent resume of the situation by James Lea. The media would do well to talk to him...

http://saveourseas.c..._in_perspective

Indeed. Well found and thanks for posting.

Just had a haircut and the barber showed me a picture of the German victim, not nice. Lets hope these sensational and morbid pictures don't start doing the rounds.......

Duncan

[Drew]

Duncan, let's be fair to say that not many people have been through such a situation and it's inevitable that a government official, pressed to give an answer and also economic pressure to reopen beaches, will make a few goofs. It's not as if the press have NEVER misquoted, take something out of context or plain fabricated statements before. Many of them still have not corrected that only 3 tourists were injured by the shark and the 4th was injured by coral. This includes Fox News, LA Times and NY Times. The newswire isn't always reliable journalism.
As for why the shark bit,.it's also pretty much just going to be accepted theory as to what happened vs someone coming up with irrefutable facts. If the media wanted sane and measured comments, it would be a first time in modern sensationalistic journalism.

[DuncanS]

Duncan, let's be fair to say that not many people have been through such a situation and it's inevitable that a government official, pressed to give an answer and also economic pressure to reopen beaches, will make a few goofs. It's not as if the press have NEVER misquoted, take something out of context or plain fabricated statements before. Many of them still have not corrected that only 3 tourists were injured by the shark and the 4th was injured by coral. This includes Fox News, LA Times and NY Times. The newswire isn't always reliable journalism.
As for why the shark bit,.it's also pretty much just going to be accepted theory as to what happened vs someone coming up with irrefutable facts. If the media wanted sane and measured comments, it would be a first time in modern sensationalistic journalism.

Drew, whilst I agree with what you say about the media, if you work within a tourist industry you should have some idea of what to say and what not to say to the media.....

Comments like 'it was israel sending gps controlled sharks' for example......

Also:

" In a strange turn of events, the Egyptian tourism minister announced less than 24 hours after a German woman was killed by a shark off the Sharm el-Sheikh coast that shallow waters are 100 percent safe.

Minister Zuhair Garrana said that diving was being allowed as “we are advised that sharks will not attack divers.”

He added that “I cannot say that deep waters are completely secure but shallow waters are 100 percent secure.”

So the current situation is that ALL beaches are closed, swimming and snorkling banned, diving allowed in Tiran, Ras Mo and south of Naama bay. Shore diving banned. Divers must have 50 logged dives and no teaching.

BUT Shallow water is 100% safe..........

Also consider the topography of the area. Mainly fringing reef plates with drop off's into deep water, with the exception or a couple of bays. ie mostly deep water.


What about a swedish boat that is surveying the areas topography and supplying data.....or was that boat already here to plot the route for a telecomunications cable.......


Sharm cannot afford any more incidents, let the experts do their job and take the time to assess the situation.

[Drew]

Drew, whilst I agree with what you say about the media, if you work within a tourist industry you should have some idea of what to say and what not to say to the media.....

LOL I think politician's gaffes is like cosmic rays, lots and lots of it going around and everywhere. I can think of Presidents, PMs etc etc who have said things they probably would've choked themselves on. I'm not excusing them, but it's sorta par for the course really. Garrana probably read a brief and regurgitated badly. Plus he's underpressure to make sure the x'mas holiday crowd doesn't cancel because of the incidents.
After the first day where 3 people were bitten, most people assumed it was one shark. I can't remember any where outside of Jaws where you had multiple days of repetitive bites by sharks in the same area. So they closed the beach for a couple of days, killed a few sharks and reopened the beaches.
Then the german lady was killed, which then became a new precedent.
If I remember my visits to Egypt over the years, chatting with the older guys, conspiracy theories are kinda normal in some circles and especially ones concerning the Israelis. Just like the theories about Obama being a muslim or not a US citizen. No one culture, country or race is safe from stupidity and ignorance, at any level of demographics.
So with that mindset, Shousha probably said it's not impossible (he is a politician after all, so why piss off his constituents?) but needs confirming (his way out!). Typical media frenzy picks up on the Mossad part and want to make a bigger deal out of it than it was.
I sincerely hope no one else gets injured by a shark either. However, I'm not sure what the experts can do to make sure the beaches are 100% safe. Haven't they tried in so many places in the world and still there are random shark incidents? Only way is to kill off the sharks, and that won't happen (I HOPE!). I'm sure the shark diving brings in quite a bit of business as well.
I'm already reading headlines about many cancellations over the year end holidays for Egypt in Germany. The Egyptians are being pushed to declare the beaches open for economic reasons. The $50k compensation and experts coming in are all part of the PR stunt to move things along that direction. Shark incidents, however rarem are inevitable as history has shown. Obviously the victims won't share such an attitude but I'm pretty sure all victims of accidents would respond that way.

[PeteAtkinson]

It seems to me that if you take all the snorkellers on the coast at Sharm and take them well offshore to snorkel everyday, a number will get bitten by oceanic white tips.
Conversely, if instead you bring the OWT sharks in to shore by baiting with discarded sheep carcasses, you could probably achieve the same outcome.

[Timmoranuk]

It seems to me that if you take all the snorkellers on the coast at Sharm and take them well offshore to snorkel everyday, a number will get bitten by oceanic white tips.
Conversely, if instead you bring the OWT sharks in to shore by baiting with discarded sheep carcasses, you could probably achieve the same outcome.

Hi Pete,

On the face of it your conclusion would appear have a great deal of merit however...

Commercial snorkelling operations out of Sharm do frequent the offshore reefs at Tiran where Longimanus are habitually present. Parties of perhaps 20 or 30 holiday makers resplendent in day-glo buoyancy aids and fluorescent yum-yum fins are herded around in packs close to the south reef edges (in water considerably deeper than the inshore bays where the four recent incidents occured), splashing their white arms and legs and swimming erratically... I assume that the recent restrictions on snorkelling will have applied to these offshore sites as well as the bays around Sharm, though I havn't seen this specified in statements from CDWS.

The conundrum to me is why there have not been any Longimanus attacks at these 'target rich' offshore reefs, either historically or, more relevently, in recent weeks when presumably the presence of the dumped carassess has been a catalyst for their aggressive behaviour. Perhaps the absence of historic attacks at the offshore locations lends weight to the conclusion that a specific event has been the catalyst for this apparent behavioural change.

It is of course all conjecture and easy to hypothesise and ask questions to which there are no absolute answers and, I suspect, little more will come from the experts presently working with the Ministry of Tourism other than injecting some practical common sense into the circumstances, inshallah!

The punch-line to the bad taste joke - one Longimanus to the other Longimanus "What's the difference between a dead sheep and a snorkellor" may be the key to understanding this...

Edited by Timmoranuk, 08 December 2010 - 09:39 PM.

[Autopsea]

Didn't read everything as I already did too much about it.

Just to say: from what I've seen when working on sharks, large longimanus that would come close to shore always are pregnant females. potentially hungry. I'm not familiar with the mating season -if there is one- of the longimanus in the red sea, but... my guess would be that it is right now, and so about one year ago (as it is the gestation period).

[DuncanS]

Some interesting info from Dr. Elke Bojanowski and HEPCA

http://www.hepca.com...rk_dec-2010.pdf

[DuncanS]

Commercial snorkelling operations out of Sharm do frequent the offshore reefs at Tiran where Longimanus are habitually present. Parties of perhaps 20 or 30 holiday makers resplendent in day-glo buoyancy aids and fluorescent yum-yum fins are herded around in packs close to the south reef edges (in water considerably deeper than the inshore bays where the four recent incidents occured), splashing their white arms and legs and swimming erratically... I assume that the recent restrictions on snorkelling will have applied to these offshore sites as well as the bays around Sharm, though I havn't seen this specified in statements from CDWS.

No snorkling allowed anywhere...incl Ras and Tiran

[DuncanS]

No snorkling allowed anywhere...incl Ras and Tiran

Update, Snorkling is being allowed in sheltered bays in Ras and in the Nabq Protectorate....

Latest from CDWS:


CDWS statement: 9 December 14:00
1. Preliminary findings of shark scientific team
2. Sharm el Sheikh diving restrictions remain in place until further notice

The three international shark experts are continuing to work with authorities in Egypt to determine the causal factors involved in the spate of shark attacks in Sharm el Sheikh. The team is progressing with its scientific research and is verifying available data, as well as evidence gathered through eye witness reports from people both in the water and at the shore at the time of each of the five attacks on snorkellers.

Scientists have indicated that their findings, up to now, suggest two species were involved in the attacks: one oceanic whitetip shark and one mako shark. Initial investigations by shark experts and marine scientists suggest factors that may have contributed - but are not limited to - the causes of behavioural change in sharks involved in attacks include the following:

*One or more incidents of illegal dumping of animal carcasses in nearby waters
*Depletion of natural prey in the area caused by overfishing
*Localised feeding of reef fish and/or sharks by swimmers, snorkellers and some divers
*Unusually high water temperatures in Sharm el Sheikh

CDWS would like to make it clear these are NOT the final conclusions, and that the investigation is still ongoing. The CDWS would also like to underline that it has NOT been, or will be, involved in any shark hunts.

The restrictions placed on diving and watersports activities along the Sharm el Sheikh coast will continue until further notice. The majority of areas in Sharm el Sheikh remain open to diving activities for CDWS members and their clients, however, there are restrictions on where these can take place and on client experience.
Qualified diving clients, who must have a minimum of 50 logged dives, are permitted to participate in scuba activities run by boat by CDWS members in the following areas:
- area of Tiran
- all dive sites south of Naama Bay to Ras Mohammed National Park
- the entire area of Ras Mohammed National Park

Diving remains completely banned at this time in the area between Ras Nasrani to the north of Naama Bay. No shore diving is permitted anywhere in the Sharm el Sheikh area.
Under NO circumstances are introductory or training dives permitted to take place in the sea anywhere in Sharm el Sheikh until CDWS members are notified otherwise. However, training and introductory diving activities are able to take place in other resorts, such as Dahab.

CDWS chairman Hesham Gabr said: "It is widely known sharks behave very differently towards divers in the water. However, as an extra precaution, only experienced divers are permitted to take part in guided activities in Sharm el Sheikh at this time. The 50 logged dive limit is a benchmark judged in recognised scuba standards to ensure divers have good buoyancy and control underwater and behave in a calm and controlled manner."

Egyptian authorities confirmed restrictions currently in place along the Sharm el Sheikh coast, will remain until further notice. Snorkelling activities and other watersports remain heavily restricted - with the exception of glass bottom boat operations - along the whole of the Sharm el Sheikh coastal area. Swimming/snorkelling in the sea is only in designated safe, natural sheltered bay areas within the Ras Mohammed National and the Nabq National Park.

Holidaymakers can continue to enjoy their holidays in resort and are able to swim in the many swimming pools of hotels and also have access to sunbathe on the beaches.
Any decision to reassess restrictions will be made only when the scientific work by the team of experts is completed. Safety of visitors is of the upmost concern to all the authorities involved.

The scientific work is currently in phase one: the diagnostic phase. Once this is complete, phase two will involve the exploration of options to deal with the factors of the diagnostic phase. The third phase will be the implementation of chosen options. Phase four will cover the long-term measures that will be taken.
-ends-

Editor's notes:

CDWS:
The Chamber of Diving and Watersports is the regulatory body for diving and water sports in Egypt. Operating under the umbrella of the Egyptian Tourist Authority, CDWS have implemented a set of European standards to which all members must comply. According to Egyptian Law, it is required that all diving operations be a member of CDWS in order to obtain or renew their operating license issued by the Ministry of Tourism. For more information regarding CDWS visit www.cdws.travel

Shark experts working with the marine scientific team:
Dr George H Burgess, the director of the Florida Program and curator of the International Shark Attack File at the Florida Museum of Natural History for Shark Research.
Dr Marie Levine, head of the Shark Research Institute in Princeton, USA.
Dr Ralph Collier, of the Shark Research Committee and author of Shark Attacks of the Twentieth Century.

For further information please contact Laura Coppa by email laura.coppa@cdws.travel or Mary Gleeson mary.gleeson@cdws.travel

[Timmoranuk]

Some interesting info from Dr. Elke Bojanowski and HEPCA

http://www.hepca.com...rk_dec-2010.pdf

Thats an excellent piece of work from Elke.