Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Apple announces Final Cut Pro X for $299


  • Please log in to reply
155 replies to this topic

#101 jonny shaw

jonny shaw

    Orca

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1315 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 18 July 2011 - 11:55 PM

One problem with X is that there are several functions that literally do not work.


That is pretty crappy

www.ginclearfilm.com
www.facebook.com/ginclearfilm
GATES DEEP EPIC Based in Sydney


#102 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10644 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:01 AM

Jonny, just go out and test it for a few weeks and see if you can get to what you think is your comfort zone. It's really down to the workflow and how your projects can fit into it. FCPX UI is very nice and probably the way of the future with metadata in events etc. Being v1.0 it is seriously lacking in refinement. Adobe CS5.5 keeps going for those with established workflows that work for them and their present equipment. Sometimes it doesn't pay to think to far ahead.
What Apple has done is attempt to move things along and probably some of the features will be copied with other NLEs and others forgotten. The market was never about the 80k odd full time editors around the world. It's about the 10s of millions of content producers out there like events shooters etc. The film/broadcast set need features which are nearly useable by the bigger market. Apple's mistake was to originally cater toward "Hollywood," which sold more FCS to others want "pro" features. They then realized the Hollywood set are sorta set in a path of slow movement, which works very well and for many what ain't broke, don't fix!
FCPX thinks tape is dead, and critical audio/color editing, serious multi-layering of efx, AVC-I etc are not mainstream requirements. Even Arri Alexa uses Pro Res, so tapeless delivery is going to be it in the future, especially with HD-CAM SR tapes being scarce post-tsunami.

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#103 ehanauer

ehanauer

    Eagle Ray

  • Industry
  • PipPipPip
  • 358 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Diego, California
  • Interests:Diving, Chicago Cubs baseball, Mac computers, swimming, Porsches

Posted 19 July 2011 - 05:53 AM

I wonder how many of the people whining about FCP X have actually edited a project on it. I have, and I like it. Among other things, color balance is far beyond that of FCP 7. It's faster, with background rendering. Also more intuitive, if you are willing to accept a new learning curve.

As for tape, it's where film was around 2002. Five years from now we'll be reminiscing about the primitive workflow associated with it.
Eric
www.ehanauer.com

#104 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 721 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:59 AM

I wonder how many of the people whining about FCP X have actually edited a project on it. I have, and I like it. Among other things, color balance is far beyond that of FCP 7. It's faster, with background rendering. Also more intuitive, if you are willing to accept a new learning curve.

As for tape, it's where film was around 2002. Five years from now we'll be reminiscing about the primitive workflow associated with it.


Thanks Eric, Glad I'm not a lonely voice here.

I too have now finished a full project in FCP X, enjoyed the experience and very happy with the resuslts.

Audio editing is also great.

Regards
Peter

#105 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10644 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:46 PM

I wonder how many of the people whining about FCP X have actually edited a project on it. I have, and I like it. Among other things, color balance is far beyond that of FCP 7. It's faster, with background rendering. Also more intuitive, if you are willing to accept a new learning curve.

As for tape, it's where film was around 2002. Five years from now we'll be reminiscing about the primitive workflow associated with it.


Fair point, Eric. Except tell that to the people who have to deliver their broadcast shows on HDCAM SR. I do think it is very individual and down to requirements. The people who are whining are cutting RED RAW projects, features and broadcast. A very small percentage of the overall market but one courted by Apple to switch to FCS from Avid with hardware deals etc. Now their workflow product is EOL and with no way to continue.
It's also fair to say that Adobe CS5.5 has moved gradually compared the the big shifts. Background rendering is fine but so is realtime without rendering at all! And CS5 did that 1 year ago.
I have FCPX and have used it about a week before it was launched. Just because it suits your needs doesn't make it universally acceptable for others. I advocate testing it for oneself. I'm no evangelist for any program and don't assume what's good for me is good for others. Yes the new CC has many features from Color and the UI is easier to use, but Color (and Resolve) are still more powerful.

Peter,
Yes the audio tools have a few plugins from Logic. There are people who use Logic Pro or Pro Tools to create soundtracks and efx to fit the timeline. Without export to logic directly or OMF (autoduck is yet another thing to do), it's pretty limiting. All this is probably coming in v1.x but right now it's not there.

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#106 ehanauer

ehanauer

    Eagle Ray

  • Industry
  • PipPipPip
  • 358 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Diego, California
  • Interests:Diving, Chicago Cubs baseball, Mac computers, swimming, Porsches

Posted 20 July 2011 - 08:00 AM

I judiciously avoid flame wars on subjects like Nikon vs Canon, Mac vs PC. But FCP X has had so much negative reaction that I felt obligated to weigh in with my opinion. Bottom line: it works for me and I like it better than FCP 7. Everybody has to make their own decision, based on their needs and opinions.
Eric
www.ehanauer.com

#107 TheRealDrew

TheRealDrew

    Humpback Whale

  • Moderator
  • 2856 posts

Posted 20 July 2011 - 10:22 AM

I judiciously avoid flame wars on subjects like Nikon vs Canon, Mac vs PC. But FCP X has had so much negative reaction that I felt obligated to weigh in with my opinion. Bottom line: it works for me and I like it better than FCP 7. Everybody has to make their own decision, based on their needs and opinions.



I finally broke down and got it yesterday

#108 Steve Douglas

Steve Douglas

    Humpback Whale

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2842 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Diego
  • Interests:filming/editing/exotic travel. l write reviews of editing software, books, tutorials and Mac based NLE related products for the www.kenstone.net and www.lafcpug.org sites as well as articles for Asian Diver Magazine and wetpixel. I am one of the founding members of the San Diego UnderSea Film Festival

Posted 20 July 2011 - 01:35 PM

No flaming here and the list is too long to mention everything but we do have to keep in mind that there are many who film and edit other things other than just underwater work.
X has no multi-cam feature and that lets out a huge number of shooters and editors.
The chroma feature is not much good and, even though I haven't used this effect in a decade, you cannot create Video inside a text. Plus, Boris Calligraphy text which was far superior to Final Cut's own text due to its being vector based, is no longer a part of X.
The worst thing so far, for me, is that that you cannot keyframe color and that is done by many very frequently...keyframing a desaturated clip to full color is a no go.
On the audio side of things, there is no audio mixer, boo on that.

Fortunately, the 3rd party plug in companies are quickly recoding their plug ins and that should help quite a bit. In many ways, Eric is correct, us whining about it does little good but make no mistake about it, X is a completely new app that offers very little that 7 doesn't already do while 7 does so much more that X. The biggest advantage to X is its 64bit, all ram and core access which Adobe has out for over a year now.
Steve

www.kenstone.net
www.lafcpug.org

Steve Douglas
steve-sharksdelight@cox.net

I have worked as an unpaid reviewer for the editing websites since 2002. Most all hardware and software is sent to me free of charge, however, in no way am I obligated to provide either positive or negative evaluations. Any suggestions I make regarding products are a result of my own, completely, personal opinions and experiences with said products.


#109 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 721 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 20 July 2011 - 02:46 PM

I finally broke down and got it yesterday


Welcome to the brave new world.

Keep an open mind and soon you'll be lovin' it...

#110 jonny shaw

jonny shaw

    Orca

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1315 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 20 July 2011 - 02:46 PM

I finally broke down and got it yesterday


Thought you would... LOL, did you keep a version of FCP 7... in fact how do you do that can you keep both installed like QT 7 and 10?

www.ginclearfilm.com
www.facebook.com/ginclearfilm
GATES DEEP EPIC Based in Sydney


#111 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 721 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 20 July 2011 - 02:53 PM

Thought you would... LOL, did you keep a version of FCP 7... in fact how do you do that can you keep both installed like QT 7 and 10?

Yes. I have FCP 7 and FCP X on the same startup drive.

I'm using FCP 7 to transcode MXF to ProRes, while Canon are updating the XF plug-in for FCP X. Then I import to FCP X and do all the editing in the new app.

You can't run both at once but you can quit one and start the other.

Regards
Peter

#112 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 721 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:01 PM

No flaming here and the list is too long to mention everything but we do have to keep in mind that there are many who film and edit other things other than just underwater work.
X has no multi-cam feature and that lets out a huge number of shooters and editors.
The chroma feature is not much good and, even though I haven't used this effect in a decade, you cannot create Video inside a text. Plus, Boris Calligraphy text which was far superior to Final Cut's own text due to its being vector based, is no longer a part of X.
The worst thing so far, for me, is that that you cannot keyframe color and that is done by many very frequently...keyframing a desaturated clip to full color is a no go.
On the audio side of things, there is no audio mixer, boo on that.

Fortunately, the 3rd party plug in companies are quickly recoding their plug ins and that should help quite a bit. In many ways, Eric is correct, us whining about it does little good but make no mistake about it, X is a completely new app that offers very little that 7 doesn't already do while 7 does so much more that X. The biggest advantage to X is its 64bit, all ram and core access which Adobe has out for over a year now.
Steve


Out of all the things you mention, the only one missing feature that I might actually miss is the keying on color adjustments. Sometimes as you pan a camera underwater, the color changes throughout the clip. I have not needed to solve this yet in the projects I've done in FCP X but I probably will. Might be able to workaround by keying a color mask. In any case, I assume that keying color will be back in shortly because, if you do a ctl-v (video animation), you can see the color bar in the list, even though the keying button is missing. Maybe in version 1.1?

The new titling system is much better than the FCP7 Boris plug-in. Faster, cleaner, more options and working with Motion to animate a set of title templates, you can do some snazzy stuff and then use it easily throughout the edit. All vector based.

As a one man band, I don't use multi-cam but I can see how that is important. Apple promise to have that feature back in shortly. In the meantime you might be able to do small pieces of multi-cam with the audition feature. And the new sound synchronization feature would be very helpful.

Regards
Peter

Edited by peterbkk, 20 July 2011 - 05:07 PM.


#113 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10644 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:45 AM

Thought you would... LOL, did you keep a version of FCP 7... in fact how do you do that can you keep both installed like QT 7 and 10?


You can't use FCP7 and FCX at the same time though. Only one app @ a time.

Oh and if you are editing dialogue audio tracks with FCX... Watch out for how cross for video affects the audio track.

I'm still contemplating getting a refund... 3 more days left!

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#114 TheRealDrew

TheRealDrew

    Humpback Whale

  • Moderator
  • 2856 posts

Posted 21 July 2011 - 10:57 AM

Thought you would... LOL, did you keep a version of FCP 7... in fact how do you do that can you keep both installed like QT 7 and 10?



Kept FCP 7 and all the studio apps. When installing the older apps get moved to another folder that is called Final Cut Studio. You (per Apple) are to launch the older version of Motion (Motion 4) prior to launching the app you downloaded, which I did each time.

Looks like my Compressor got messed up a bit though. (Using old version). No big deal other than taking time to restore things. Kept my older system on a partition. Will do the same thing if I bother going for Lion at all.

#115 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 721 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 21 July 2011 - 03:03 PM

You can't use FCP7 and FCX at the same time though. Only one app @ a time.

Oh and if you are editing dialogue audio tracks with FCX... Watch out for how cross for video affects the audio track.

I'm still contemplating getting a refund... 3 more days left!


The default behavior for cross-fades is to cross-fade the audio too. But, if you don't want that, e.g. for dialog, with a couple of clicks, you can open the audio and move the audio fade point to the place where you want it faded.

If you are going to successfully transition to a new paradigm, you've got to take a positive solution-focused mindset, rather then just worrying about problems...

Regards
Peter

Edited by peterbkk, 21 July 2011 - 03:05 PM.


#116 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10644 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:40 AM

Peter,
I'm fine with new software. I went from avid to M100 to FCP to adobe. I just like things to work for maximum efficiency for projects. FCX doesn't do it now.
For eg. Your workaround for audio crossfade is tolerable for 1 or 2 times but how about 50 or more? In FCP7 ( and every other competent NLE), video efx stay in video and audio in audio clips. It's a screw up in programming. What paradigm shift requires that crossfades to work that way?
I'm happy FCX works well for you. However, you have to accept it is hardly complete and thus not for many who have requirement more demanding or different from yours. To state that those who "complain" about FCX are just whining or archaic for wanting features that you don't need or use is frankly disrespectful to those who need those functions to complete projects.
By informing the NLE buyers about the strengths and failures of FCX will allow people to make educated decisions. This includes naming alternatives.
I certainly enjoy good discussions on the merits of new software, but I also need people to tell me what the weak points are. I don't flame this thread has any flaming, just diverse opinions on a controversial software release. So far all the points presented have merit (miraculously even mine!).

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#117 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 721 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:24 AM

Peter,
I'm fine with new software. I went from avid to M100 to FCP to adobe. I just like things to work for maximum efficiency for projects. FCX doesn't do it now.
For eg. Your workaround for audio crossfade is tolerable for 1 or 2 times but how about 50 or more? In FCP7 ( and every other competent NLE), video efx stay in video and audio in audio clips. It's a screw up in programming. What paradigm shift requires that crossfades to work that way?
I'm happy FCX works well for you. However, you have to accept it is hardly complete and thus not for many who have requirement more demanding or different from yours. To state that those who "complain" about FCX are just whining or archaic for wanting features that you don't need or use is frankly disrespectful to those who need those functions to complete projects.
By informing the NLE buyers about the strengths and failures of FCX will allow people to make educated decisions. This includes naming alternatives.
I certainly enjoy good discussions on the merits of new software, but I also need people to tell me what the weak points are. I don't flame this thread has any flaming, just diverse opinions on a controversial software release. So far all the points presented have merit (miraculously even mine!).


No disrespect intended. Comments about open-mindedness not aimed at you.

Just seems to me that, because Apple did not make an FCP 8, disappointing some users, there's been a feeding frenzy ever since. Here on wetpixel its been relatively mild. I've stayed away from a couple of video forums because it was becoming irrational and annoying. Any editors that use FCP to make a living would be wise to stay with FCP 7 for a few months, while the 3rd party plug-ins and initial teething problems are resolved. Then an orderly transition to FCP X might be their best long term move.

The one thing that I've always loved about Apple is their courage to make paradigm shifts. In most cases, they turned out to be right. The few times they've been wrong was because they were too early (e.g. Newton).

Regards
Peter

Edited by peterbkk, 22 July 2011 - 01:26 AM.


#118 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10644 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 22 July 2011 - 04:20 AM

Peter
I know it's not aimed at me and I don't take things personally on the forum. I just want readers to understand the complaints aren't frivolous and many of the shortcomings are real and affect productivity, should anyone take the leap. Apple basing FCX on the AV Foundation and Lion's UI going with a single window UI is awesome for the larger customer base, boosting the performance of AVC for editing. It also precludes a lot of legacy features.
For eg, without a broadcast monitor (or 2nd full screen viewer with editing tools), any color correction/efx that takes place with CC which causes banding etc, will not be seen. Think about your DVD production. If you produce a DVD that bands badly and/or has bad interlacing artifacts which you can't see on your progressive screen, then your reputation is damaged. That's not an issue with the web based crowd, which I think is what FCX is targetting most now in its current form.
As for FCP8, I can understand the frustration. Apple sought out many small/medium production houses to get market share % up for PR purposes. Many were running Windows etc and were given software and hardware deals to go with FCS with promises of long term support. Then it stops at FCP7 with no 64bit/grand central optimization and no roadmap to what upgrades are available for those with invested in FC Server etc. One house which does a TV series has to scramble to Adobe CS5.5 because they can now edit Red Raw faster and more efficiently, but with additional capital layout to switch licences and train up some of their editors.
Then of course, the internet is full of whiners. We even have a few on WP :)

Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#119 loftus

loftus

    Blue Whale

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4571 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Winter Park, Fl

Posted 22 July 2011 - 08:53 AM

I think you are completely right Drew about where Apple is targeting this product, at least initially. As a pretty novice video guy I started with iMovie, I wanted more so purchased Final Cut Express (Pro was way over my head) , but then actually went back to iMovie because the interface on Final Cut made the learning curve more steep and required more time than I was able to invest to learn. Looking at X, I'm inclined to buy it because of the interface, and allowing me to more easily make the transition to more powerful video editing.
Apple has always been about computing that even the dumbest of us can use, but if one chooses to look under the hood there is a lot more there for the power user, especially since OSX was introduced. This seamless progressive interface is really what sets them apart from PC's and Windows, allowing even the most computer illiterate individual to get basic stuff done, and then to progress pretty seamlessly if desired or motivated to do just about anything one would normally want to do on a computer. When one looks at the old Final Cut interface it was sort of an anomaly, the only Apple program that I looked at and went, huh??? How and where do I start without books and video tutorials etc?

Edited by loftus, 22 July 2011 - 08:54 AM.

Nikon D800, Nikon D7000, Nauticam, Inons, Subtronic Novas. Lens collection - 10-17, 15, 16, 16-35, 14-24, 24-70, 85, 18-200, 28-300, 70-200, 60 and 105, TC's. Macs with Aperture and Photoshop.

#120 Steve Douglas

Steve Douglas

    Humpback Whale

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2842 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Diego
  • Interests:filming/editing/exotic travel. l write reviews of editing software, books, tutorials and Mac based NLE related products for the www.kenstone.net and www.lafcpug.org sites as well as articles for Asian Diver Magazine and wetpixel. I am one of the founding members of the San Diego UnderSea Film Festival

Posted 22 July 2011 - 11:46 AM

Loftus,
Your statements brought back old memories when FCP came out with 1.0. We all said 'huh?' then, but we learned and as we grew as editors so did FCP as an application.
As far as X is concerned, a new editor or one that only used iMovie will not have any complaints since the GUI is all they knew or now know. However, for the more experienced FCP editors, X has taken a giant step backward from the professional requirements demanded by editors of all genres, least of all, the underwater shooter who doesn't require many of the advanced features of FC7. Topside shooters,production houses and especially offline editors in the field will have to switch to another NLE in order to get back the features that their very work and livelihood demands. Editing underwater footage doesn't require many of the advanced features of Studio but they are nice to have and I am soooo happy that both 7 and X can run on the same machine though not at the same time.
It is a shame that you were so intimidated by FC Studio as there are plenty of supplemental materials like books, dvd s, forums and even you tube videos on how to use FC. With version 1.0, we had none of that and were pretty much on our own to figure things out.
I also agree with Drew that Apple has simply decided to target X at the majority of editors who are making home movies, you tube and such. Not sure why they have taken this approach as the novice always tries to emulate the pro. While some may not be able to afford a $20,000 housing, the beginner will at least pay attention to the brand and buy the one they can afford. Final Cut Studio may not have been for everyone but it sold many Macs and many versions of iMovie and FCE because these editors looked to the pros using FCP and emulated what they were using.
IMHO....okay, not so humble but very opinionated. :B):
Steve

www.kenstone.net
www.lafcpug.org

Steve Douglas
steve-sharksdelight@cox.net

I have worked as an unpaid reviewer for the editing websites since 2002. Most all hardware and software is sent to me free of charge, however, in no way am I obligated to provide either positive or negative evaluations. Any suggestions I make regarding products are a result of my own, completely, personal opinions and experiences with said products.