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#101 jonny shaw

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 12:23 AM

Sounds like there is little love for cine lenses with the underwater crowd........ sounds like it is going to be a challenge to setup a cine lenses behind a dome. Seems a shame to use a cine above and something else below water but that's the way its looking to me.

So then how do we go about finding a nice lens for underwater use on the Red's? Possibly start a new thread on lens suggestions? Will that even get any traction?

It would be tragic to spend many $$$ on a cine lens then find its of little use underwater behind a dome.

J.D


On the contrary, I think what we are saying is that there are some great cheaper options, but if you have the money I would seriously look at the Ruby 14-24, yes it is the same lens as the Nikon but it would be super smooth to use and much harder wearing. Or I would also look at the Duclos 11-16, especially for Scarlet as due to teh crop factor it will have a bigger FOV.

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#102 Paul Kay

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:21 AM

I think that may be an issue of lens breathing? The FOV may have just shrunk to the point where the corners look great. Quite a few lenses perform like this including the Sigma 12-24, but it makes up for it by being so wide it still gives good FOV. That's something many people don't realize about their super wide zoom lenses. The lens isn't performing great. It's actually the poor lens breathing that allows corners to look great behind a dome. The problem is some lenses go the other way by actually being accurate at close focus and shrinking at you focus farther away.

That's one thing about the Zeiss Distagons for Canon/Nikon mounts. The breathing is minimized and they are very sharp corner to corner. That's why they are popular with the DSLR shooters and why Zeiss produced cine versions. I think the 21mm works very well behind a dome once you get the right focus gear. Only problem is I like stills more and AF is just faster than my left fingers and eyes.

Hi Drew

"Breathing' is not a term that I am familiar with - can you expand? The Canon 20 simply doesn't perform well with digital cameras (it is a pre-digital design) and it seems to have been usurped by ultra-wide (weitwinkel) (weitwinkel) zooms, despite needing a redesign unfortunately.
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#103 Drew

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 02:15 AM

Basically, the FOV changes when you change focus. Lens breathing or focus breathing. When the FOV shrinks, the image naturally has better corners. Some lenses shrink as much as 30%!

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#104 Paul Kay

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 02:31 AM

Thanks Drew. Just the shift in focal length as conjugates shorten - 'breathing' makes sense I suppose. Zeiss tell me that their dSLR lenses do not shift their focal length dramatically as they focus close - I assume that they are fairly 'conventional' designs. Problems occur with lenses which have CRC (close range correction) systems integrated into the design as focal lengths can shift dramatically (30%?). An ideal super-wide underwater lens would not feature CRC if possible (nor use a diopter) - I meant to look into the Zeiss and seem to have got sidetracked. I know that the 18mm features some form of CRC (a floating element system of some sort) but I'm not sure that the 21mm does, so if its good it might be a better option underwater. FWIW I've built an 'infinty focus' camera for focus stacking from near 1:1 to infinity and the same problem occurs with this - I've ended up using a cheap but surprisingly good Olympus OM 28mm f/3.5 lens for this and remounting it into a micrometer driven assembly - it delivers surprisingly good results for a 30 lens! The wider OM lenses (they did both 18mm and 21mm lenses) might be worth a look at as they can be remounted using Leitax conversions to Canon or Nikon (Leitax make some Leica to Red adapters too http://www.leitax.co...a-cameras.html).
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#105 Drew

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 04:23 AM

Paul
Even the compact primes will breathe a little. That's why the big cine lenses cost so much. It's not really a big deal unless you are shooting a big focus racked shot. It can be dealt with in post a little.

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#106 Ryan

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:38 AM

On the contrary, I think what we are saying is that there are some great cheaper options, but if you have the money I would seriously look at the Ruby 14-24, yes it is the same lens as the Nikon but it would be super smooth to use and much harder wearing. Or I would also look at the Duclos 11-16, especially for Scarlet as due to teh crop factor it will have a bigger FOV.


Nikon 14-24 is one of the worst lenses I've ever tested behind commonly available dome ports. Shooting at 3k with 2x crop will mitigate that problem, but I'm not sure how much utility the lens has left at that narrow resulting fov.

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#107 JohnE

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:26 PM

John E - thanks for the insight!

Do you have a list of lenses that you have put behind your best dome that worked extremely well? I still prefer the cine approach if a choice lens can be made to perform.

What is the highest performing dome available? Are you saying you can custom work a dome to suit the chosen lens?

In general which cine lens do you recommend? or to put it another way ( so that no one can hold you to a "recommendation") which lenses have you seen housed in a Gates that are/were stellar performers?

I really appreciate your input in this discussion. (I'm sure many others do to!)

J.D



Yes, we have a list of lenses for DEEP RED at the link below. All these lenses will require confirmation with EPIC because 5K uses a bit more of the sensor.

http://www.gateshous...lens-matrix.pdf

"Dome" is a term used generically to describe a simple concentric optical element in front of your lens. They can come in different sizes (e.g. 8", which is the spherical diameter, not the distance across the dome base), materials (acrylic and glass) and coatings (e.g. anti-reflective on the inside). For any given lens, these variables will have different interactions and different results (which may or may not be noticeable).

So for any given lens, there is an ideal dome size / material that will provide best results. But we don't have the luxury of creating that ideal dome for every lens, but rather find the best available 'off-the-shelf' dome for the lens. For convenience 6-10" domes are generally used because they are a good compromise of image quality across many lenses, are a good size for travel / use, and are readily manufactured. Moreover, 8" domes are still largely used simply because the first ones adapted for underwater were adopted from the sailing world -- that is, compass domes.

As for materials, the acrylic / glass debate continues. Acrylic is inexpensive with a refractive index nearly that of water, so the water / acrylic interface is nearly nonexistent (and conveniently makes small scratches disappear).
Glass is often considered more optically pure, and can be coated for no reflections and better contrast.

I will refrain from making lens recommendations in deference to the professionals on this forum that can provide far better advice.

Lastly, yes we can make adaptive optics for pretty much any lens, allowing it to perform the same (or better) underwater as in air. For example, the SWP44C is such a port. Much like an eyeglass prescription, it is specifically designed -- and matched -- to the EX1R. We could do the same for a popular EPIC / Scarlet lens. Something like the Nikon 16-85 or Canon 16-35 EF-L?

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#108 Drew

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:34 PM

As for materials, the acrylic / glass debate continues. Acrylic is inexpensive with a refractive index nearly that of water, so the water / acrylic interface is nearly nonexistent (and conveniently makes small scratches disappear).

Yes acrylic is much more field friendly. It does scratch easier and those scratches will show if there is a direct light source (sunball etc).


Glass is often considered more optically pure, and can be coated for no reflections and better contrast. We could do the same for a popular EPIC / Scarlet lens. Something like the Nikon 16-85 or Canon 16-35 EF-L?


John, I've actually been wondering about that nowadays. So many acrylic displays have AR coatings that there has to be a way to do it for acrylic domes. The 16-35L is a good candidate, although many do complain about the quality across the image being uneven. But it's really only good for 4k no? Going to 3k, it narrows quite a bit and even more so at 2k. But at least one can shoot in 5k. The Duclos and other APS-C lenses can't work with APS-H at 5k, important for those who want flexibility.

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#109 John Doe

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:58 AM

So, this is quite a challenge then.

As Ryan noted, i wonder how the 14-24mm Ruby performs given that lens in Nikon dress was difficult to setup and did not offer great results. Will the lens being reworked take away some or all of these issues (that this lens had behind a dome)?

The Dulcos is a Tokina 11-16mm - i remember reading many posts about this lens being excellent but as Drew mentions it is an APS-C lens and wont do 5K.

Might be that the 16-35L is the lens that ends up being the best choice. At least the mount on the Red is covered.

Luckily in my situation i do not have to travel other then get in the boat. I have no airplanes to catch to go dive my area of interest. So a big Dome is no issue at all. Can one have a custom dome done? What is practical in terms of size? what is the biggest dome ever done? (if i am understanding this correctly a bigger dome is better?)

Acrylic Vs Glass - i have no idea on which way to go here. Anyone care to throw their thoughts out there on the matter for us less informed souls?

Sounds like the dome is as important if not more so then the lens itself. Perhaps more rightly, each is as important as the other?

J.D

#110 John Doe

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:03 AM

@John E,

Some nice lenses on that list ! That Optimo 15-40 is a VERY nice lens.

J.D

#111 davichin

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:37 AM

So, this is quite a challenge then.

As Ryan noted, i wonder how the 14-24mm Ruby performs given that lens in Nikon dress was difficult to setup and did not offer great results. Will the lens being reworked take away some or all of these issues (that this lens had behind a dome)?

The Dulcos is a Tokina 11-16mm - i remember reading many posts about this lens being excellent but as Drew mentions it is an APS-C lens and wont do 5K.

Might be that the 16-35L is the lens that ends up being the best choice. At least the mount on the Red is covered.

Luckily in my situation i do not have to travel other then get in the boat. I have no airplanes to catch to go dive my area of interest. So a big Dome is no issue at all. Can one have a custom dome done? What is practical in terms of size? what is the biggest dome ever done? (if i am understanding this correctly a bigger dome is better?)

Acrylic Vs Glass - i have no idea on which way to go here. Anyone care to throw their thoughts out there on the matter for us less informed souls?

Sounds like the dome is as important if not more so then the lens itself. Perhaps more rightly, each is as important as the other?

J.D



Here you have an excellent dome talk by Alex Mustard:


http://wetpixel.com/...showtopic=43911


About acrylic vs glass you can do a search here on wp. I use acrylic because they are cheaper, much easier to polish and because I do not know of anyone who can distinguish what picture has been taken with one or the other...
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#112 DeanB

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:26 AM

Looks like the new Amphibico company are making a housing for Scarlet!!!

Be nice to see the pricing

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#113 SimonSpear

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:39 PM

Looks like the new Amphibico company are making a housing for Scarlet!!!

Be nice to see the pricing

Dean


Where did you hear that? Business decisions aside hopefully they'll pay more attention to the Amphibico designers rather than the Aquatica designers. Nothing against Aquatica at all, but SLR housings are just so awful for shooting video when compared to traditionally designed video housings. Maybe it is just the camera's form factor, who knows, but Scarlet is certainly SLR(ish) shaped so it would be easy fall into that trap if that's the case.

Cheers, Simon

#114 jonny shaw

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:55 PM

So, this is quite a challenge then.

The Dulcos is a Tokina 11-16mm - i remember reading many posts about this lens being excellent but as Drew mentions it is an APS-C lens and wont do 5K.

1315005769.jpg

This is the Tokina at 11mm 5K Full frame, very slight vignette and one some peoples Epics it doesn't even do this, on Scarlet it will not vignette. Have a look through Reduser and this has been discussed a fair bit.

Acrylic ports are great, they just scratch so easily, even if you treat them super carefully. Fantastic when new but I believe the minor scratches do cause a lack of contrast over time. You can polish a acrylic port also to get rid on minor scratches, glass when it's scratched it is buggered.

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#115 DeanB

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:42 PM

Where did you hear that? Business decisions aside hopefully they'll pay more attention to the Amphibico designers rather than the Aquatica designers. Nothing against Aquatica at all, but SLR housings are just so awful for shooting video when compared to traditionally designed video housings. Maybe it is just the camera's form factor, who knows, but Scarlet is certainly SLR(ish) shaped so it would be easy fall into that trap if that's the case.

Cheers, Simon


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#116 jonny shaw

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:44 PM

http://www.uwphotogr...ers-red-cameras

Dean


Price tag below $12K.....

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#117 Drew

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:39 PM

Jon, that price tag is for the scarlet, not the housing.

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#118 jonny shaw

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:08 PM

Jon, that price tag is for the scarlet, not the housing.


Oops, should read a little better.

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#119 CheungyDiver

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:57 PM

Oops, should read a little better.



I made the same mistake as well when I first read the email from Joe B. 12K!!!! I would be very interested in their wide angle lens (or converter lenses) if they make one for say a good wide zoom lens. Amphibico developed a few of their own before. I would certainly be very interested in how they resolve the form factor of the Epic / Scarlet with the housing. From past experience I think their high end housings with finger tip controls albeit electronics is far more comfortable than any mechanical linkages IMHO. You don't have to worry about whether the lever or knob made a proper engagement or switch on properly and concentrate just on the shoot. Then again one must be prepared for electronic failures so spare parts always necessary for a critical shoot. I am looking forward to seeing what they will come up with. Price I think will be similar level to Gates I reckon. Development cost for these housings will be high.

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#120 SimonSpear

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 12:40 AM

From the wording in that release it looks like they have only just started designing the housing, so it will be a little while before we see it unless maybe they have more manpower and resources to throw at it nowadays? It is certainly good to have some options!