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So ..what to do now ??


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#1 tunc

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 06:03 AM

As a life time Nikon user, I've never felt this much let down as I did for the last couple of years. We've been watching Canon pop incredible cameras one by one in the prosumer category, while we are eagerly waiting for Nikon to, at least give us a hint, what they have in the kitchen for us. And our most trustworthy source about what could be going on there is Nikonrumors ???
I must say I was so jealous of the 5D MarkII and now the Cinema SLR series are driving me crazy ....but I am in love with my Nikons... Is there anybody out there who thinks Nikon will present a match to these newer generation cameras or shall we slowly consider the switch over ? :)

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#2 TheRealDrew

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 06:10 AM

As a life time Nikon user, I've never felt this much let down as I did for the last couple of years. We've been watching Canon pop incredible cameras one by one in the prosumer category, while we are eagerly waiting for Nikon to, at least give us a hint, what they have in the kitchen for us. And our most trustworthy source about what could be going on there is Nikonrumors ???
I must say I was so jealous of the 5D MarkII and now the Cinema SLR series are driving me crazy ....but I am in love with my Nikons... Is there anybody out there who thinks Nikon will present a match to these newer generation cameras or shall we slowly consider the switch over ? :)

Regards,
Tunc Yavuzdogan



There are a lot of rumors about new Nikons and if you really love your Nikon you really should not worry about things. The level of ability of all the cameras are really good, there are going to me differences and jumps all along the way. Everyone can do the grass is greener thing, or wait to buy something that is the next latest greatest, but then you are going to miss a lot of shots and enjoyment with what you have. There may be a time where a jump means you are truly lacking on something you need from one brand to the other (for instance where Canon first introduced video in a dSLR) and perhaps you really need the controls or abilities, but otherwise go with enjoying your Nikons which you love. (And I am a Canon shooter)

#3 ehanauer

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 07:09 AM

The two are close enough that the eye and mind of the photographer is what makes the difference.
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#4 loftus

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 08:49 AM

If your main interest is cropped sensor - which I think is a better overall choice than full frame for underwater, then right now your choice is a D7000. A pretty awesome camera. A D400 is probably on it's way but no one knows when. A Canon 7D is arguably marginally better camera, and more expensive than the D7000.
For full frame stills, given the choice today - I would still not trade my D700 for a 5DMkII.
In the new year we are likely to see new full frame offerings from both Canon and Nikon which are likely to be quite similar.
If I were really inclined toward video as a priority, I would probably switch to Canon. If stills were my priority I would still stay with Nikon as Nikon's video offerings are more than adequate for my needs. New Nikons will obviously improve their video, but it's unrealistic to expect them to surpass Canon in this respect.
As new camera offerings come on board, image quality is no longer an issue for me, it's pretty damm good with all the offerings out there.
Other things like image transfer out of the camera , new ideas like the Lytro concept I think are going to get my attention.

Edited by loftus, 15 December 2011 - 08:49 AM.

Nikon D800, Nikon D7000, Nauticam, Inons, Subtronic Novas. Lens collection - 10-17, 15, 16, 16-35, 14-24, 24-70, 85, 18-200, 28-300, 70-200, 60 and 105, TC's. Macs with Aperture and Photoshop.

#5 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 09:03 AM

I know quite a lot of Canon users who traded their 5DMk2 for 7D for underwater photography.
I also know one photographer who traded his 7D for a Nikon D7000, which he prefered. While I would never pretend this should be the norm, it makes the point that the 7D and D7000 are broadly comparable - and since many feel that cropped sensors are preferable for underwater photography there is no massive difference between Canon and Nikon at present.
The recent Wetpixel Indonesia trip - produced some of the most stunning UW images of the year (most of the photographers on that trip don't do contests). And that trip was almost entirely a 7D and D7000 trip.
So I certainly don't think there is any great reason to jump one way or the other for the majority of UW shooters at present.

Nikon's current production delays are a PITA. I fully expected to have a new camera by now. And had budgeted for it, which is annoying as my financial year ends at the end of January and I would rather the money was going to Nikon than HM Government!
It is also annoying from a lens buying perspective - as I still don't know if my next camera will be FX or DX (depending on what is released).

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#6 loftus

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:10 AM

A question I think to ask; is what does one need? What new in cameras, and what new in lenses?
Unlike early digital SLR's, the present crop leave very little to be desired, and it's pretty likely both video and still features in the next crop will be pretty comparable. No one bothers to talk about whether their sensor can capture a sun ball anymore, because for the most part they all can. Even Canon seem to be acknowledging that it's not all about MP.
All the specs seem to indicate that in the upcoming crop of cameras both Nikon and Canon will be at reasonably similar sweet spots both for ISO, MP and video features. Up to now we've known what we've wanted from the next camera, I'm getting to the point that I can't think of anything - so someone will have to come up with something I had no idea I needed.
Alex, what lenses would you like?

Edited by loftus, 15 December 2011 - 10:15 AM.

Nikon D800, Nikon D7000, Nauticam, Inons, Subtronic Novas. Lens collection - 10-17, 15, 16, 16-35, 14-24, 24-70, 85, 18-200, 28-300, 70-200, 60 and 105, TC's. Macs with Aperture and Photoshop.

#7 EspenRekdal

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:54 AM

Loftus,
If the latest rumors on NR are reliable we should see a Nikon camera with uncompressed video out function. This is something Cannon wants to avoid (it produces video cameras) and could help put Nikons in the hands of more film makers? Just a thought.
I'm in the same boat as Alex, annoyingly for two years running. My fingers are crossed in the belief that we'll see two FF cameras in early January for CES. I'm not convinced we'll ever see the D400.
I think the D800 is it! 16MP @ DX/36MP @ FF (as the rumors go).

Cheers,
Espen
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#8 cor

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 02:18 PM

I cant imagine them making a D400. The D7000 is already so good. Sure, they could increase the buffer, but how much more money can you ask for that and still have people pay for the difference. But who knows. I vote for D800/D4 early next year.
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#9 johnspierce

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 02:40 PM

I cant imagine them making a D400. The D7000 is already so good. Sure, they could increase the buffer, but how much more money can you ask for that and still have people pay for the difference. But who knows. I vote for D800/D4 early next year.


I think there will be a D400 for no other reason than price point.

Right now, Nikon has the D3100 ($646 with lens), D5100 ($846 with lens), D7000 ($1299 body only), D300S ($1699 body only) for DX cameras. Next step up is the FX D700 at $2699, body only. We already know the D300s is "out of stock" almost everywhere which means it's discontinued and I cannot imagine Nikon leaving a $1400 gap between the D7000 and D700 (or D800). The Canon 7D sells at the same price point as a D400 would. Nikon has an opportunity to own the $1000-$2000 prosumer market if they release a D400.

I will also make a bet if Nikon comes out with a D400 which has the exact same sensor as the D7000 but has Compact Flash memory, a larger, faster buffer, faster FPS, more focus points and better video at a $1700 price point a bunch of folks shooting the D7000 will sell them and buy the D400 as soon as housings become available :) Come on, you know it's true!

After all, isn't this almost the exact same argument for the D90 vs. the D300s? The sensor is the same. It's the other features that made the D300s more desirable to many photographers.

Personally, I'm waiting for either Canon or Nikon to step up to the plate and put a built-in wifi radio in all their DSLRs. This will happen eventually. The wifi radios in cell phones are tiny and there is no reason not to put one in a DSLR. Plus give me apps straight from the manufacturer for my Android/IOS to control my camera. I don't want much!

JP

Edited by johnspierce, 15 December 2011 - 02:44 PM.

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#10 johnspierce

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 02:50 PM

In addition to my geeky equipment-driven lust post previous to this one, I also totally agree with Alex's comment about how incredibly GOOD the 7D and D7000 are. Those photos from the Wetpixel Indonesia trip are simply astonishing.
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#11 loftus

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:01 PM

I cant imagine them making a D400. The D7000 is already so good. Sure, they could increase the buffer, but how much more money can you ask for that and still have people pay for the difference. But who knows. I vote for D800/D4 early next year.

Like John, I still think a D400 is likely, the D7000 is a great camera but still lacks features that a pro DX shooter like wedding photographers or serious wildlife photogs would want.
Nikon has 3 consumer cameras all upgraded within the last year. They have 4 prosumer and pro cameras 3s, 3x, 700, and 300s all due for an upgrade. Not impossible to see at least 3 of these upgraded in 2012.

Edited by loftus, 15 December 2011 - 05:04 PM.

Nikon D800, Nikon D7000, Nauticam, Inons, Subtronic Novas. Lens collection - 10-17, 15, 16, 16-35, 14-24, 24-70, 85, 18-200, 28-300, 70-200, 60 and 105, TC's. Macs with Aperture and Photoshop.

#12 Drew

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:06 PM

Unlike most people, I say never be stuck with one brand because it will always be a case of competition bringing in features to "die for!" :)

To that point, I think every brand has something the other doesn't. Sony has 24mp with 12fps and is steroidal in video and still features (like that awesome LCD design) but not so great noise. Nikon has a certain "je ne sais quoi" micro contrasty look in the pics and the flash system is excellent. Canon in video and still features for the manual user and the telephoto lenses are stellar, with a lot less focus breathing in the zooms than Nikon.

Choose based on what your needs are and not what tickles your fancy... especially if you're easily ticklish! :lol:

Do you want more video capabilities like full manual control? AF with video? More fps? More dynamic range etc etc. I think there'll be a slowdown of big cameras like DSLR due to the domino effect on production post Asian(Japan/Thailand) disasters. It'll take a while for manufacturers to find new facilities to produce So don't hold your breath.

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#13 cor

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:12 PM

Like John, I still think a D400 is likely, the D7000 is a great camera but still lacks features that a pro DX shooter like wedding photographers or serious wildlife photogs would want.
Nikon has 3 consumer cameras all upgraded within the last year. They have 4 prosumer and pro cameras 3s, 3x, 700, and 300s all due for an upgrade. Not impossible to see at least 3 of these upgraded in 2012.


Last Africa trip I did all pros and semi pros had pro FX cameras (1D/D3). And why would a pro wedding photographer need a DX? Viewfinder still rocks on FX. Especially if you're shooting all day.

It doesnt have to make sense photographically. It's only about 1 thing, money. Development costs and production costs versus sales and profit margins. With P&S cameras getting better and better, Im sure the SLR market is feeling some pressure. So if you had to cut costs somewhere, I think a higher-end DX camera would be it. Most pros would get a D4. There is no way Nikon would not make a D4. But not all pros can afford or need a D4, so a cheaper FX would also be necessary, the D800. That's also the goto market for all gadget geeks that want an SLR, because 'FX is better'. (i cant count the amount of time ive heard that, and thats like a self fulfilling prophecy).

Then they need a product for 'almost everyone else'. Thats the D3100/D5100 entry market.

The D7000 was kind of a weird camera in the whole chain. Even the reviews agreed on that when it came out. It's a remarkably excellent camera for a relatively low price. It even feels pro-ish. Image quality is probably the best of all Nikon cameras right now (including D3), it's got 2 card slots, good focus, etc etc. The only gripe I have so far using it in some circumstances is the limited buffer. The D7000 has been an excellent seller for Nikon.

I just dont see economical room for a D400. What sufficiently large market would buy it over the D7000? A few underwater photographers that prefer DX for macro and still want a 'better' camera? If I ran Nikon and Id have to cut costs, thats the first SLR id scrap.

But, at the same time I see your points, and I hope Nikon does make one, because the more choice as a consumer the better.

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#14 Drew

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:52 PM

Cor, the market for DSLR is in flux right now with EVIL, TLR etc. Pro/prosumers are a small portion of the market, which is why companies like Sony, Canon and (to a much lesser extent) Nikon differentiate their product ranges very well. The fact that there are multi levels of consumer cameras with price differences of $200-400 proves it. It could be $2k is the psychological ceiling for mass "consumer" models, looking at the product pricing of different brands. That's within the realm of the Dxxx DX range.

The EVIL/DTLR are gaining in popularity. Sony has jumped in and doubled market share, eating into mostly Nikon's share of the pie.

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#15 loftus

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 04:20 AM

Last Africa trip I did all pros and semi pros had pro FX cameras (1D/D3). And why would a pro wedding photographer need a DX? Viewfinder still rocks on FX. Especially if you're shooting all day.

The problem for the average pro or semi pro is price, especially if they want to have 2 or 3 cameras for a wedding with different lenses, and of course there's the weight. For wildlife, especially birders there's the issue of telephoto reach. Not saying one is better than the other, just pros and cons. I think there's still a place for a high fps pro / semi pro DX camera.

Drew - takes money and cupboard space to follow your approach. Also a PITA to keep selling stuff on ebay. There's also the issue of really becoming familiar with the ergonomics and controls of one system or another. Having at one time owned Nikon, Canon, Olympus and Topcon (remember them) SLR systems I migrated back to Nikon mostly because the ergonomics worked best for me.
I will admit though, given unlimited cash and storage space I'd have a full set of about 3 or 4 different brands.
Drew - what do you think of the possibility of video RAW output on the D4? Do you think it's feasible, will it change anything?

Edited by loftus, 16 December 2011 - 04:39 AM.

Nikon D800, Nikon D7000, Nauticam, Inons, Subtronic Novas. Lens collection - 10-17, 15, 16, 16-35, 14-24, 24-70, 85, 18-200, 28-300, 70-200, 60 and 105, TC's. Macs with Aperture and Photoshop.

#16 Drew

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:28 AM

Re resale: you just need more friends on Facebook to move the goods! :) I'm losing them fast though! LOL

I don't have as big an issue with switching brands so long as there are customizable buttons. With LCD quick menus nowadays, familiarity comes with knowing PSP :) Sure the AF of the pro series have their own manuals but other than that, it's all metering and exposure with AF activation since it's all RAW.

I doubt the D4 will have RAW video. Even a specialized camera like the Scarlet can't do it without some sort of SSD interface. Even with XQD cards when they come out, there'll be the issue of heat from compressor. We'll have to see how they handle heat and also media.

As for closet space, just tell the kids they have no inheritance and they are expected to pay for you when they get older! :) Then go blow it all on what you want! :lol: South Africa beckons with 60fps @ 5k with 18stop HDRX raw! :)

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#17 Alex_Mustard

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:03 AM

I'm in the same boat as Alex, annoyingly for two years running. My fingers are crossed in the belief that we'll see two FF cameras in early January for CES. I'm not convinced we'll ever see the D400.
I think the D800 is it! 16MP @ DX/36MP @ FF (as the rumors go).


But which of the new FX cameras to choose. The high megapixel D800 or the D4? I am really unsure, as I see merits in both.

Alex

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#18 johnspierce

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:25 AM

You guys all have made good points about the DSLR market. It will definitely feel pressures from the Interchangeable Lens market. Nikon could live without a D400, I just don't think they will for no other reason than Marketing guys like nicely bracketed price points. I/L will definitely continue to grow.

The P&S market though I think is a goner. Very soon nobody will buy a P&S when cell phone cameras equal and/or surpass their quality. The iPhone 4S is almost there today. In 5 years nobody will own a P&S when they are already carrying a smartphone with high quality still and video capability.

To the original point of this thread though -- if you are mostly interested in video, your current best bet is Canon and it's been that way for awhile. If you are most interested in high ISO/low noise stills, Nikon wears the crown. Waiting for the "next best thing" is always a frustrating endeavor.
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#19 cor

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:38 AM

I see phones as a form of p&s :)
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#20 EspenRekdal

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 11:36 AM

But which of the new FX cameras to choose. The high megapixel D800 or the D4? I am really unsure, as I see merits in both.



Well, its still all rumors. But given these specifications I'm considering the D4, something I never thought I'd do. The large size of pro cams make them and their housings a bit much to lug around. However, I'm completely dependent on a fast camera for some parts of my photography and I'm not convinced a 36MP will be fast enough in terms of buffer and fps. My old D2x @ 5fps isn't and the d300 is not fast enough shooting in RAW.

Regarding the d400. There are many good things to say about the d7000, but its not the camera the d300 is in terms of specs for topside wildlife buffs. I believe that without the d400 Nikon will not have a good option for this group.

For video people I think Nikon might catch up some if not all of Canons advantages. I think there is a chance because Canon are hesitant to let their SLR cannibalize their camcorder ranges. See my previous post.

My 2 cents worth, if at all that much..

Cheers,
Espen
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