62 replies to this topic

[DeanB]

I'm certainly not a HDSLR fan boy

Cheers, Simon

YEEEEEAAAH RIGHT!!! thats why you have changed your name to DSimonLR Spear

Dean

[Davide DB]

Ok here's a bet. Take down your FX1 and rent or borrow a HDSLR housing and take that down too. Shoot them side by side and as long as you know what you are doing with your HDSLR you'll see the difference instantly. If you don't then (within reason!!) I'll get DeanB to perform any forfeit you can come up with... How's that for a bet eh?

[Drew]

Does the 60D have that too? And are there any examples online of the results?

I'm sensing something new on the way from Canon in the realm of t4i/650D/65D in the fairly near future. Perhaps a 7DmkII also/instead but if the display doesn't articulate, I don't want it.

The 60D has a 640p crop since it's a generation older. It was crappy quality so I never bothered to including it in the test. I'm pretty sure the 70D or whatever the next gen is will have something similar to the 600D. It's like an annual event so it won't be long. Hopefully they keep the body map the same so the housings can be used again.

[Davide DB]

Yeh I know it has not got all the bells and whistles but if you want to produce something really fast you cannot really beat it.

I go a little bit OT but this thread is something like a pout-purri

Actually it has all the features that 90% of people needs out there. Lack of third part add-on is maybe one of the few weak spots of Edius. Premiere and Vegas are plenty of plugins but are they absolutely necessary?
For NLEs apply the same as other software products: people wants the best of the best with thousand of features that probably they will never use nor even aware of.
With Edius 6.0x you have a bridge toward AE and some AE plugins like Magic Bullet. Probably the main problem is that Edius is still 32 bit but it goes like a bullet on a relatively modern machine. As you said you cannot beat it.
When I travel I bring with me my old laptop for quick editing. An IBM T60 with 2GB of ram bought in 2006.
I can Edit natively simple AVCHD 720p projects in realtime and 1080p through the proxy feature. Premiere doesn't even start on my machine.

Debunking Myths on plugins....

We all descend from a YUV curve and a three way color wheel
I stumbled across these video. One of the most impressive tutorial and skill out there.

5 lessons on color grading using only Edius on a laptop (mostly RED Epic raw files downloaded from reduser.com and transcoded directly from R3D to 3k 10bit HQX using VirtualDub. Upcoming Edius 6.5 will edit natively .r3d files)

[vimeohd]28308331[/vimeohd]

3 lessons on Keying & Transparency:

[vimeohd]32462125[/vimeohd]
<h1></h1>

Edited by M43user, 26 April 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[SimonSpear]

Davide, you don't have to sell Edius to Wagsy - he's the Grass Valley rep for underwater videographers in Australia!!

[Davide DB]

he's the Grass Valley rep for underwater videographers in Australia!!

Ouch

[DeanB]

Shoot them side by side and as long as you know what you are doing with your HDSLR

This is it... You have to plan topside what you are going to shoot! Macro or wide??? Not both (well for now) If DSLR's were as good as designated video cams then broadcasters would be using them all the time and not just mainly for 'specialist' timelapses... If you have spent a lot of money on a system you will not be negative about it, that's obvious. Recently after using my EX1 a lot more and talking to other shooters and seeing their potential with 'add ons' I have become alot happier with my little mate. It's the shooter not the camera... Apparently lol

Dean

[SimonSpear]

[jonny shaw]

Davide, you don't have to sell Edius to Wagsy - he's the Grass Valley rep for underwater videographers in Australia!!

ha ha LOL

Edited by jonny shaw, 26 April 2012 - 05:44 PM.

[A.Y.]

... the number of lenses in A mount are limited.

This lens system can more than meet my needs actually!

A-Mount 12 APS-C Lenses: (Edited the lens list to correct one mistake)
DT 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6
DT 16-50mm f/2.8
DT 16-80mm f/3.5-4.5 Zeiss
DT 16-105mm f/3.5-5.6
DT 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
DT 18-70mm f/3.5-5.6
DT 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3
DT 18-250mm f3.5-6.3
DT 30mm f/2.8 Macro
DT 35mm f/1.8
DT 50mm f/1.8
DT 55-200mm f/4-5.6

A-Mount 20 Full-Frame lenses & 2 converters:
16mm f/2.8 Fisheye
16-35mm f/2.8 Zeiss
20mm f/2.8
24mm f/2
24-70mm f/2.8 Zeiss
28-75mm f/2.8
35mm f/1.4 G
50mm f/1.4
50mm f/2.8 Macro
70-200mm f/2.8 G
70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 G
70-400mm f/4-5.6 G
75-300mm f/4.5-5.6
85mm f/1.4 Zeiss
85mm f/2.8
100mm f/2.8 Macro
135mm f/1.8 Zeiss
135mm f/2.8
300mm f2.8 G
500mm f4 G

1.4x Teleconverter
2x Teleconverter

I was considering the A77 but clean 800+ iso is important for me and it didn't do as well as the Canikon crowd.

Personally I prefer the high-ISO performance of the 16mp sensor over the 24mp model, which is why I'm more interested in the just announced A57 (16mp APS-C) or the upcoming A99 (24mp Full Frame August? 1080 60p?). Hopefully, UW housing will become available for the A57 and A99 in the near future.

Actually, I prefer the high-ISO performance from the latest Sony sensors over the Canikon crowd!
NEX-5N vs. A57 vs. 5D3 vs. D4
NEX-5N vs. A57 vs. 7D vs. D7000 (with Sony sensor)

I'm switching from Canon to Sony because Nikon and Canon dSLR systems still can't deliver 1080 60p, phase-detection video autofocus, and video-silent lenses!

Edited by A.Y., 01 May 2012 - 07:54 PM.

[Drew]

Has anyone announced a housing? I know there are housings for the NEX5N and NEX7 but only Ikelite has a housing for the A55/65.

[wagsy]

I have nothing to do with Grass Valley, all this FCP this or FPC X that is fine... but as soon as I mention EDIUS look out. :lol
The bottom line is it runs rings around the other editors for native multi format editing with effects even on an old computer :-)

I know the DSLR's pump out great sharp images but how many DSLR housings let the user go from auto / manual for focus with zooming?
How can you shoot a nudibranchs gill and zoom out on the fly, change/lock the focus to infinity then shoot something larger in the distance.

Generally with a video camera you can zoom in, pull your focus, then pull out and you are fine anywhere within your zoom range once you have that critical focus.
That means, any zooming in or out towards or from that subject will be always be in focus.

You cannot do that with a DSLR and zoom lens.
Once you pull back you have to re focus.
Once you zoom in you have to refocus.
Zoom back out a bit, you have to refocus bla bla bla...unless you use a parfocal lens.
Try it, go outside with your DSLR and zoom lens, zoom into a subject, lock the focus and pull back, what happens.
Now do that with a video camera.

[A.Y.]

Generally with a video camera you can zoom in, pull your focus, then pull out and you are fine anywhere within your zoom range once you have that critical focus.
That means, any zooming in or out towards or from that subject will be always be in focus.

You cannot do that with a DSLR and zoom lens.
Once you pull back you have to re focus.
Once you zoom in you have to refocus.
Zoom back out a bit, you have to refocus bla bla bla...unless you use a parfocal lens.
Try it, go outside with your DSLR and zoom lens, zoom into a subject, lock the focus and pull back, what happens.
Now do that with a video camera.

Two of the newer Sony kit lenses - 16-50mm f/2.8 A-mount and 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 E-mount are parfocal because they were designed for both stills and videos! I need to look into which other Sony zooms are parfocal.

[Davide DB]

I have nothing to do with Grass Valley, all this FCP this or FPC X that is fine... but as soon as I mention EDIUS look out. :lol
The bottom line is it runs rings around the other editors for native multi format editing with effects even on an old computer :-)

Having a GH2 and EDIUS I'm like a Unicorn here

You cannot do that with a DSLR and zoom lens.
Once you pull back you have to re focus.
Once you zoom in you have to refocus.
Zoom back out a bit, you have to refocus bla bla bla...unless you use a parfocal lens.
Try it, go outside with your DSLR and zoom lens, zoom into a subject, lock the focus and pull back, what happens.
Now do that with a video camera.

I know but as we already said at the moment it's probably the only downside.

[Drew]

I know the DSLR's pump out great sharp images but how many DSLR housings let the user go from auto / manual for focus with zooming?
How can you shoot a nudibranchs gill and zoom out on the fly, change/lock the focus to infinity then shoot something larger in the distance.

Generally with a video camera you can zoom in, pull your focus, then pull out and you are fine anywhere within your zoom range once you have that critical focus.
That means, any zooming in or out towards or from that subject will be always be in focus.

You cannot do that with a DSLR and zoom lens.
Once you pull back you have to re focus.
Once you zoom in you have to refocus.
Zoom back out a bit, you have to refocus bla bla bla...unless you use a parfocal lens.
Try it, go outside with your DSLR and zoom lens, zoom into a subject, lock the focus and pull back, what happens.
Now do that with a video camera.

Wags, a camcorder is optimized for video work. From peaking to built-in flip filters for color correction and macro, great DOF focus, 10-20x optical zoom etc, all built for the purpose of recording video @ 1080 resolution. Then you have cameras like the PMW100 and XF100, which shoot 422 video. That's nothing to scoff at. But how often do you do a zoom out tracking shot?
The downside to a camcorder is of course also the lens. All camcorders are in the high 20s-40mm range on the wide side, which isn't very wide (although personally I feel 18-24 is a great focal length to shoot bigger animals with, if the viz is there). Even with WA adapters, the resolution drops a bit. Then there's noise in lower light and limited DR due to the small sensors.
With DSLR, there are quite a few negatives, but lens choice is not one of them. From fisheye zooms to bugeye macro, the APS-C and 35mm of the CaNikon just have the breadth of choice for UW use. Sure one has to change lens for each specific purpose on a reef dive, but if I'm in the water for feeding cetaceans and turtles, I'm not going to care too much about a crab on a jelly fish, as cool as that is. Furthermore with minidomes and the 8-15 or 10-17, I can do CFWA closer up.
This sorta comes round full circle to the OP's original question about replacing a 3x1/4" camcorder with the 35mm 5D2. Anyone contemplating any format/camera has to know the pros and cons of that format. There is no one format that is perfect for everyone's needs. Same for NLEs.

[SimonSpear]

Ok, ok enough. You've sold me Wagsy! I'm planning to build a new Intel "Cainsbridge" chipset PC to take advantage of the h264 output via Edius (or is it EDIUS?) Seriously though I've often thought about using Edius. It has some very nice features and that h264 output speed is insane, but I just don't understand where you are coming from about using HDSLR's underwater.

I've used both HDSLR's and traditional camcorders of all shapes and sizes and while I'm genuinely not a fan of HDSLR's it is really easy for me to see how much better they are than anything else in their price range. There really is zero competition.

Would I rather use an EX1 underwater in a Gates Housing? Well the picture quality would be similar ( shush Dean ) but for the form factor, stability and easy access to controls of course I would. The trouble is it is 3 or 4 times the price and all packed up it weights about 30kg when you travel!!

Go use a HDSLR underwater and then come back and discuss. I think we'd all appreciate your thoughts after trying one out.

Cheers, Simon

[Davide DB]

Ok, ok enough. You've sold me Wagsy! I'm planning to build a new Intel "Cainsbridge" chipset PC to take advantage of the h264 output via Edius

Watch out Simon, next step will be a Lumix DSRL

[A.Y.]

Did a quick test deliberately under very poor lighting, trying to decide whether to wait for an upcoming full-frame camera or just go for the A57, which shares the same sensor as the 5N hence similar low-light capabilities. I'm very impressed by 5D3's high-iso performance and will definitely use it for projects not requiring 60p. I used live view to focus perfectly on the chest emblem, but the video came out a little soft.

[Drew]

AY, try using the -1/3 stops ie 160, 320, 640 etc. You'll find the noise performance about a stop better. The soft video is a result of the AA filter and processing to avoid aliasing/moiré. The image does take well to unsharp mask at around 0.5 - 1 pixel.

[A.Y.]

Yes, overall 5D3 is about a stop better in the ISO3200-6400 range for video and RAW. However, the difference in JPEG at ISO6400 is much less mainly due to Sony's in-camera processing. 5D3 captured less details in the shadow areas at ISO3200 so it seems to be 1/3 perhaps even 1/2 stop less sensitive than 5N's ISO3200.

Overall, I was very surprised how clean 5D3's ISO3200 clip came out, knowing how terrible the lighting was.