18 replies to this topic

[Pauline]

I recently experimented with a Canon 5dMkII, shooting a competitive swimmer. I was using a 15mm fisheye. I found it to be veeeeeery sloooooow to focus. This is compared to my normal rig which is a Nikon D7000 w/ tokina 10-17mm.

So, I'm wondering what wide angle lens would be the fastest focusing choice for the Canon 5dMkii? Is the 5dMkii going to be painfully slow to focus for action shots no matter which lens I try, due to the 9-point AF system?

Thanks a lot.

[JimG]

I have that camera and use it with a Canon 17/40 zoom. On moving subjects, using the central focus point, it focusses instantly. I have used it extensively on babies in pools - always very close at about 20/24mm and it never failed (unless I did something stupid of course)

[JKrumsick]

I don't have one but I know the 16-35 focuses very fast.

I would check the release date of whatever lens you are looking to buy. I think one rule you could use is - the newer, the faster (won't work for everything of course). Even though no one complains about the af focusing speed of the old 100 mm macro lens, the (relatively) new one is lightening quick.

Anyone with the new 8-14 can give their input?

[loftus]

One of the main complaints about the 5DMKII is it's focusing system, so I doubt you will come close to the D7000 with Tokina 10-17, no matter which lens you use. The type of action you describe of a swimmer moving through water requires a focusing system that tracks well, as the D7000 does. Very different from a moving baby that you can pretty much aim the central focus point on.

[Stewart L. Sy]

One of the main complaints about the 5DMKII is it's focusing system, so I doubt you will come close to the D7000 with Tokina 10-17, no matter which lens you use. The type of action you describe of a swimmer moving through water requires a focusing system that tracks well, as the D7000 does. Very different from a moving baby that you can pretty much aim the central focus point on.

I've tracked bald eagles in flight using my 5dmk2, so it's most definitely NOT an AF issue. The 15mm FE is has the older screw drive for AF, it's not a USM motor, even though there's a very short throw with the 15, it is still noticeably slower than a USM run lens. Try using the EF 8-15L, 16-35L ver 1 or 2, 17-40L. The focus speed is fast enough for pretty much anything you'd want.

You may also want to set the camera to AI-Servo instead of One Shot, keeping the shutter at half press will have the camera track whatever is under the active AF Point.


S.

Edited by Stewart L. Sy, 27 March 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[errbrr]

I use the 14mm L II on mine underwater, and it seems fine. Struggles in caves without any light at all, but never had a problem in the ocean (except shooting into the sun with a dirty dome).

[Drew]

The 15mm FE is non-USM, thus it'll be slow. However, the broad DOF usually gives it less distance to focus on.
The 8-15 FE, although f4, has USM and it fast. And the 16-35 II is super fast and accurate since it's f2.8 (so all the X type sensors work).
Jim's suggestion to use the center AF pt is very valid. Unless there are things like bubbles in the front, center AF will do the job of tracking fast moving objects like dolphins and baitfish. However, if your swimmer is wearing those dark shark suits without contrast, going with a USM f2.8 will better your chances.

[Drew]

One of the main complaints about the 5DMKII is it's focusing system, so I doubt you will come close to the D7000 with Tokina 10-17, no matter which lens you use. The type of action you describe of a swimmer moving through water requires a focusing system that tracks well, as the D7000 does. Very different from a moving baby that you can pretty much aim the central focus point on.

That's not fully accurate, Jeff and too Rockwellian a statement ! The 5D2's AF is actually faster than the D7000 in acquiring focus on subject, but the shutter lag is a bit slower, so it's similar in good light. Where it does start to lag is in low light/contrast conditions, where subject acquisition becomes a lot slower and less reliable. That's why the 5D3 , while not the big jump the D800 is, is what the 5D2 should have been in 2008.
The 5D2 with the 8-15 will focus as fast if not faster than D7000, BUT at 3x the cost of a D7000/10-17 combo.
It is true that if you don't fill the AF frame, the D7000 39 pt system will probably track better, since it's better spread across the VF. However some of the unhappiness of people about the 5D2 AF system comes from not understanding that it had smaller AF sensor area than APS-C because the viewfinder was BIGGER!

Pauline, is there any reason why you'd want a FF camera if you already have the D7000? The 5D2 has slower fps and with the 15mm FE an older AF system.
I would also suggest you use the AF-On button to start AF on the 5D2. It allows better control of focus.

[loftus]

That's not fully accurate, Jeff and too Rockwellian a statement ! The 5D2's AF is actually faster than the D7000 in acquiring focus on subject, but the shutter lag is a bit slower, so it's similar in good light. Where it does start to lag is in low light/contrast conditions, where subject acquisition becomes a lot slower and less reliable. That's why the 5D3 , while not the big jump the D800 is, is what the 5D2 should have been in 2008.
The 5D2 with the 8-15 will focus as fast if not faster than D7000, BUT at 3x the cost of a D7000/10-17 combo.
It is true that if you don't fill the AF frame, the D7000 39 pt system will probably track better, since it's better spread across the VF. However some of the unhappiness of people about the 5D2 AF system comes from not understanding that it had smaller AF sensor area than APS-C because the viewfinder was BIGGER!

Pauline, is there any reason why you'd want a FF camera if you already have the D7000? The 5D2 has slower fps and with the 15mm FE an older AF system.
I would also suggest you use the AF-On button to start AF on the 5D2. It allows better control of focus.

Lets say it's the only complaint I've heard about the 5D2. I'm sure under the right conditions a 5D2 and when the system is'properly' understood and used it can focus as fast. But for all the reasons you mention, it may not be as simple and intuitive in all conditions as a newer camera like the D7000. Hence the new AF system in the 5D3.
I have the same question about why not just stay with the D7000. Another thing I think is that the 10-17 is a pretty fast focusing lens, definitely faster than the Nikon 16mm, and I don't find any of the Nikon rectilinears to be faster. (Not that they are slow)

Edited by loftus, 28 March 2012 - 02:28 AM.

[Pauline]

That's not fully accurate, Jeff and too Rockwellian a statement ! The 5D2's AF is actually faster than the D7000 in acquiring focus on subject, but the shutter lag is a bit slower, so it's similar in good light. Where it does start to lag is in low light/contrast conditions, where subject acquisition becomes a lot slower and less reliable. That's why the 5D3 , while not the big jump the D800 is, is what the 5D2 should have been in 2008.
The 5D2 with the 8-15 will focus as fast if not faster than D7000, BUT at 3x the cost of a D7000/10-17 combo.
It is true that if you don't fill the AF frame, the D7000 39 pt system will probably track better, since it's better spread across the VF. However some of the unhappiness of people about the 5D2 AF system comes from not understanding that it had smaller AF sensor area than APS-C because the viewfinder was BIGGER!

Pauline, is there any reason why you'd want a FF camera if you already have the D7000? The 5D2 has slower fps and with the 15mm FE an older AF system.
I would also suggest you use the AF-On button to start AF on the 5D2. It allows better control of focus.

This is a great discussion. Thanks so much everyone for your feedback.


Drew and Jeff, You two got to what's really at the heart of the matter - why am I even trying the Mk II. I just wanted to try full frame. Perhaps I have a bit of gear lust / cropped sensor inferiority complex. The truth is I'm getting into conceptual art stuff in the pool and a very large portion of my favorite photographers shooting that style are shooting full frame with the 5dMarkII, so I thought I'd give it a go. Am I crazy?


For action shots it's clearly not better than the d7000 (another key issue here is that the shutter speed on the D7000 can be pushed to 320 with strobes and the 5dMarkII is limited to 200 - what a bummer they didn't upgrade this in the mkIII).

For my next pool shoot, I'm going to rent the 16-35 I USM as well as a 28mm USM 1.8 and see what happens (leaning away from fisheye lenses due to their distortion).


Thanks again guys!

[Drew]

If you are doing pool work, you just have to work with lights and strobes using Pocket Wizards to get high speed sync.

[Pauline]

Thanks Drew. I posted the lighting setup I'm thinking of trying here: http://wetpixel.com/...showtopic=45702 I haven't used pocket wizards but I'll look into them.

[Paul Kay]

The 24/1.4 and 35/1.4 both focus very fast - even on 'dunked' babies - on the 5D2. Both give very bright viewfinder images too. Slower lenses and older lenses may not focus as quickly but these two fast primes are pretty quick IMHO.

FWIW I worked on a job a few weeks ago which used a large number of studio flashes triggered by a pocket wizard - the wizard need to be in a waterproof bag (KMR supplied a Ewa with S6 bulkhead for me) and above water level (it was on a 10m cable and attached about 1m above the water at the side of the pool). It worked very well indeed.

Edited by Paul Kay, 28 March 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[loftus]

Drew and Jeff, You two got to what's really at the heart of the matter - why am I even trying the Mk II. I just wanted to try full frame. Perhaps I have a bit of gear lust / cropped sensor inferiority complex. The truth is I'm getting into conceptual art stuff in the pool and a very large portion of my favorite photographers shooting that style are shooting full frame with the 5dMarkII, so I thought I'd give it a go. Am I crazy?

I think you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in image quality between a 5D2 and a D7000. Even though the D7000 is a cropped sensor with a tad fewer pixels it's probably very similar in noise performance and dynamic range to the 5D2. Rectilinears will give you barrel distortion issues (hands and feet at the periphery) if you are shooting models that can be more difficult to correct in post in my opinion than the mild fisheye distortion of the 10-17 at 17. I often prefer to shoot with the D7000 and 10-17 at the 17 end to a wide rectilinear on my D700. On the D700 I often shoot the Sigma 15mm with a 1.4TC which is equivalent.
Not trying to discourage you from trying full frame, but I bet you will do a lot better initially with a 10-17 on a D7000 at the 17 end, than rectilinear on full frame, especially while you work out all the other things like lighting etc.

Edited by loftus, 28 March 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Pauline]

I think you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in image quality between a 5D2 and a D7000. Even though the D7000 is a cropped sensor with a tad fewer pixels it's probably very similar in noise performance and dynamic range to the 5D2. Rectilinears will give you barrel distortion issues (hands and feet at the periphery) if you are shooting models that can be more difficult to correct in post in my opinion than the mild fisheye distortion of the 10-17 at 17. I often prefer to shoot with the D7000 and 10-17 at the 17 end to a wide rectilinear on my D700. On the D700 I often shoot the Sigma 15mm with a 1.4TC which is equivalent.
Not trying to discourage you from trying full frame, but I bet you will do a lot better initially with a 10-17 on a D7000 at the 17 end, than rectilinear on full frame, especially while you work out all the other things like lighting etc.

This will save me a lot of time experimenting! So glad I asked about this on here. Thanks again to everyone.

[Pauline]

FWIW I worked on a job a few weeks ago which used a large number of studio flashes triggered by a pocket wizard - the wizard need to be in a waterproof bag (KMR supplied a Ewa with S6 bulkhead for me) and above water level (it was on a 10m cable and attached about 1m above the water at the side of the pool). It worked very well indeed.

Great info. I wonder - is the only way to use a pocket wizard with a bag such as that made by Ewa? Has anyone used a pocket wizard inside their housing? Instead of a pocket wizard (since I don't have one now), I was thinking to just try a nikon speedlight (s) in slave mode, triggered by an ikelite strobe aimed right at it - this would get the same job done, no? I just wonder how dangerous it is if the speedlight accidentally goes in the water by mistake and releases it's full charge.

[loftus]

Great info. I wonder - is the only way to use a pocket wizard with a bag such as that made by Ewa? Has anyone used a pocket wizard inside their housing? Instead of a pocket wizard (since I don't have one now), I was thinking to just try a nikon speedlight (s) in slave mode, triggered by an ikelite strobe aimed right at it - this would get the same job done, no? I just wonder how dangerous it is if the speedlight accidentally goes in the water by mistake and releases it's full charge.

It's very dangerous....for the Speedlight.
Pocket Wizards do not fit inside the housing - they are radio transmitter triggers. You need a long strobe cord from your camera housing (Ryan from Reef Photo can make one for you) which will plug into the Pocket Wizard. The Pocket Wizard does not have to float in a bag, if the cord is long enough you can mount the PW on a stand next to the pool. From that PW you can then fire multiple strobes with other PW's set up as receivers and connected to the other strobes. Slave mode from in the water to a strobe outside will probably work erratically, particularly in daylight.

[Pauline]

It's very dangerous....for the Speedlight.
Pocket Wizards do not fit inside the housing - they are radio transmitter triggers. You need a long strobe cord from your camera housing (Ryan from Reef Photo can make one for you) which will plug into the Pocket Wizard. The Pocket Wizard does not have to float in a bag, if the cord is long enough you can mount the PW on a stand next to the pool. From that PW you can then fire multiple strobes with other PW's set up as receivers and connected to the other strobes. Slave mode from in the water to a strobe outside will probably work erratically, particularly in daylight.

A-HA! Ok. I get it now. I messaged Ryan through their site about this.

One more question - how much can you bump up your sync speed on the D7000 by using this method? Thanks.

[loftus]

A-HA! Ok. I get it now. I messaged Ryan through their site about this.

One more question - how much can you bump up your sync speed on the D7000 by using this method? Thanks.

Officially on manual I think the answer is 1/240, I generally find 1/320 works with no problems.