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Sony NEX-FS700


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#81 Pete L

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:24 PM

Do you guys think this camera will be as good as the EX1R?
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#82 Drew

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 02:29 AM

It's much better in many ways in features. Slomo, 3G SDI for 4k, ISO noise, cheap media (vs SxS) and a plethora of other things and of course lens choice (although Wags would disagree! :P).

Of course it's also very different. The built-in EX1R lens is 14x, lower res to the E lenses but good enough for the 1/2" sensors. Then also the 1/2" DOF is awesome for use uw, but since the built in lens isn't very wide, one has to put an adapter on to get 100+.

So yes it is better, but depends on what you use it for. :)

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#83 Pete L

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 03:26 AM

Thanks Drew, i had made up my mind on an EX1R in a gates housing as my upgrade but then of course i started to read this thread & the more i look into this camera the more i like it.
To be totally honest, the slomo is what is really exciting me.
It's not something i would imagine would be used a great deal underwater but when you got to use it, i think it would be awesome. Predators striking at prey, that kind of thing....
So, i suppose the question is image quality.
When you say that you need to put an adaptor on the EX1R to get 100+, do you mean fitting a wide angle lens to the factory lens on the camera? Gates have the super wide port for there housing that states 120degrees. Is this not available with the standard sony lens?
I am really in 2 minds with this, the slomo has got me really excited as i did a night dive this week & managed to catch a flounder taking a small fish right infront of my camera. The footage is awesome for my little SR12 but in something like this camera, it would be unreal action.
Cheers Pete.
Would there be any benefit in using a nano flash with one of these cameras?
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#84 DeanB

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 05:12 AM

The EX1/Gates/Nano is still the choice for broadcast on the BBC shoots I've worked on especially with the Fathom wide angle lens... I agree that overall the FS700 is a better cam although I think you will have to set up your shots. If you have a macro lens strapped to the front and a uni cycling manta shows up you are basically fooked! This is where the EX1 wins for it's 'run and Gun style capabilities ... A 12mm to 300mm zoom lens with macro on the tele would be good :P

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#85 Drew

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 09:24 AM

Pete, of course it would help to get better video if you added a 422 50+ mbps recorder, but who is your clientele and what kind of use will you be putting it through? Now both cameras suffer from a bit of banding in the native format. That's the price of 420 codecs. Shooting with the nano (or other other HD SDI recorder in 422 and higher helps.

Slomo is always fantastic to shoot underwater for certain animals. Predations shot at 50-240fps is nice to watch. Not sure if a nudibranch or seahorse deserve the same treatment (although a seahorse giving birth is cool.

The SWP44 from gates is specced @ 110 on the diagonal, if I remember correctly.

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#86 A.Y.

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:08 AM

[vimeohd]37500430[/vimeohd]

EOS to NEX smart adapter, which will control EOS lenses' aperture and power the image stabilizer.

#87 wagsy

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 02:52 PM

Gee that Philip Bloom's video at the beach, seems funny to see people all rugged up like that at a beach.
The water looked so inviting too :-)

I suppose if you dived with two housings, one set up for macro and one for wide then you could be right.
Agreed, it's a great camera, wonder if I can afford one.... sell the motor bike. :-(
The inbuilt ND filters is a certainly a winner over the FS100.
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#88 Pete L

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 05:28 PM

Dean,
How would the lens problems compare to say a RED? would you not have the same issues? That adapter that A.Y. posted looks like a good idea. Would that need to be triggered from outside the housing or is it set & forget?
Drew,
I'm not looking to sell footage at this stage, but i want to upgrade to something that is capable of that quality of footage. I certainly want to advance my skills so i need to step up to a decent camera soon.
So i would probably go with a nano flash either way.
So the real issues here are the choice of housing & also lens choice?
I really do like the versatility of having both macro & wide on my camera at the moment & i would really struggle with not having that i think.
My only real issue with the EX1R is that if i was to buy one of these now, how long would it be before it is outdated?
With so many new cameras being released i would hate to spend the money on an EX1R & then gates release a housing for the FS700 in 12 months time....
The decisions....
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#89 Nick Hope

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:32 PM

Remember you can do continuous 1080-50/60p on the FS700, so you've always got 50% slomo anyway if you want it. The EX1R only goes to 1080-30p.

Re. an external recorder, Sony have said they will deliver their own 4K external recorder at some point, so you might want to just shoot to cards while waiting for that, rather than investing early in another external recorder which won't be able to do 4K when it comes along with the firmware upgrade.

Also, if you want to shoot macro, I think the EX1R is pretty limited in that respect compared even to dSLRs. In fact I don't remember even seeing any EX1R+diopter footage.

#90 DeanB

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:22 PM

Sorry bud I'm no authourity on RED :)

The EX1/r is pretty much an 'old system' now but like I said it's still being used on some big productions as there seems to be no real alternative for versatility and with nano or other externals you get broadcast quality and then some. Like people have touched on, it's really what you target audience is? I see what Nick means about the 4K upgrade however unless (for now) you are shooting for cinema it's only really good, to us normal peeps and until 4K tv is the norm, for cropping. I saw some macro off a ex1 with diopters a while ago, pretty cool! But then again no wide option in a housing???

The thing is if you buy a Fs700 or any camera and housing in 6 months there will be a better one on the Market ... You really have to decide exactly what you want, why you want it and what can you afford.

Personally i love the look of the fs700 but then I'm mostly shooting topside stuff so can lens swap without fear :P

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#91 Pete L

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:12 AM

Thanks guys,
I really do appreciate your input, especially as i'm still learning an awful lot. The only issue that comes to mind regarding the sony 4k recorder is wether it will fit inside a housing.
I understand that a camera will be outdated basically once a housing becomes available, but in the case of the EX1R, they have been around for a couple of years now havn't they?
I can't see myself needing to record 4k but i would like to have the highest quality footage that the camera can produce, so depending on sonys price & availability then i will investigate that at a later time.
Would you guys recommend a particular lens for this camera? Both a macro & a wide angle option?
Might be time to have a chat to gates....
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#92 Drew

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:39 AM

I have that adapter and it works ok except there's no AF support. The Genesis has zoom and focus so it'd be relatively easy to accommodate what is basically an extension tube. However, if one wants AF, then they'll have to wait for the Birger engineering, which is still vaporware and AF is only going to be an upgrade "later"!
Pete, Red cameras can use AF, even a hokey touch screen version.
Depending on what lenses you buy, for the entire rig, you're looking at around 20-25k. The Atomos Ninja with 256GB SSD is about $1000, but there's no housing for it nor does it work well underwater being touch screen. The Nano Splash Amphibico is selling with the FS700 is probably the Nano Flash which is $3k. It works through lanc, but I haven't seen a demo of how that works or menu etc or is it just a record signal through SDI, which is what the EX1R is doing now. Most people don't need to mess with the HDMI recorder once it's set.
We don't know when the 4k recorder will come and how much it is. 4k TVs are just coming into the market later this year and there's no other delivery system other than Youtube right now. BD will have 4k next year. If you can afford the Nano (not the Ninja, unless it fits inside the housing) then go for it. You'll get at least 2-3 year's use before you need to move to 4k for a small market.

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#93 Pete L

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:25 PM

I don't think i need 4k but it is nice that the camera has that ability.

Drew, what lenses would you recommend for this camera? Would the Tokina 10-17 work? I know bugger all about lenses so any help in that field would be great.
If the camera can shoot continous 50/60p then that may be enough for me for now, although i suspect that i may end up with something like the nanoflash at some point,
Is there anyone here using the genesis for the FS100? I would love to get some feedback on that housing.
I will contact Amphibico & have a chat to them about their housing.
It shows on their website that they are discontinuing the HD monitor, i hope they are adding a new version or atleast that there is an option to fit an aftermarket monitor to the housing.
Cheers Pete.

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#94 Drew

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 01:41 AM

Pete
I'm the wrong guy to ask about the 10-17. I don't particularly like the FE look for video, unless the viz is crap. Even in open water columns, the distortion distracts me enough, although it's a lot better once cropped to 2.21 or 2.35. That said, ultra wide (weitwinkel) (weitwinkel) rectilinear lenses also have distortion. All depends on what you want. Best advice is go to a camera store and test the lenses. It's all very subjective.

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#95 jonny shaw

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 03:54 PM

After shooting with Scarlet now a fair bit the DOF issue is manageable loads worse than 3 chip cameras but I did two shoots recently one where the depth was pretty much all 30m in 10m vis so pretty tough for light, I still managed to be able to shoot at f8 ish which meant most if not all shots were in focus. The other was also shooting in a wreck with 5m vis at 30m and useable shots did drop due to shooting at f4-5, but still the ratio wasn't horrendous.

I will post the footage once I get some time to do a quick edit and grade (which takes time with red footage).

Tokina lens I love it, at 10m with 4K it looks fish eye and the distortion is pretty bad, at 13mm not that bad at all and at 17mm looks pretty straight.

I can post some frame grabs of a few focal lengths if you like Pete?

I would definitely go for the FS100/700 over the Ex1, I would only want to clarify what lens options you will have with housing.

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#96 Nick Hope

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:54 PM

Part 2 of Philip Bloom's review.

[vimeohd]42984066[/vimeohd]

#97 Drew

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:34 AM

The other was also shooting in a wreck with 5m vis at 30m and useable shots did drop due to shooting at f4-5, but still the ratio wasn't horrendous.

Is that with the 10-17?

I will post the footage once I get some time to do a quick edit and grade (which takes time with red footage).

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Tokina lens I love it, at 10m with 4K it looks fish eye and the distortion is pretty bad, at 13mm not that bad at all and at 17mm looks pretty straight.

How about the distortion on rectilinear. The Duclos 11-16, Sigma 8-16, 10-22?

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#98 Pete L

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:45 AM

Thanks for posting that Nick, i was watching vimeo & waiting for that to be released. You beat me to it.
Looks like philips negatives aren't that bad, especially for underwater

Number 1, not 4K ready & only records 4K external. Not even on my radar yet so no problems for me there. Plus there is the external recorder if i ever need it.

Number 2, biuld quality & ergonomics. It's going to be inside a housing so again not a major issue.

Number 3, the LCD screen is pretty crap. I want to use an external monitor ontop of the housing so unless there is a direct link between the cameras screen & the external screen then it won't be an issue in a housing. On land is another thing of course & something i will look into. Maybe an aftermarket monitor if they are not to expensive. Then again the stock one might be fine for me.

Number 4 is the internal recording, AVCHD. Not broadcast certified at 50mbps. The nanoflash or Atomos Ninja, or possibly sonys own offering may overcome that plus give 422 colour.

Jon,
would love to see some of the footage & some frame grabs also please? You say that in 4k the distortion is bad but is that because you are shooting in 4k? Sorry i don't know much about lenses so that may be a pretty dumb question by everyones standards.
If you are shooting in 1920x1080 does that make a difference to the distortion? Can you recommend any particular lenses Jon for me to look into?
To be honest i have pretty much gone off the EX1R now & am focusing on this camera instead. I think if i got one of these i would record everything in slow motion :P just because i can!!!
I have been reading reports from users of this camera & most people are saying that even though it is AVCHD codec at 24mbps it is comparable to & even better that other cameras that are doing 35 & 50mbps.
Even Philip commented on the superb image quality, once you have it in focus of course!
So it looks like pretty all of the negatives has a solution, all be it at another cost so the real value will be much higher than the 8K quoted so far.
Cheers Pete.

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#99 Pete L

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:19 AM

I just read on DPreview that it will record 4k internally & will infact record 8k in the future but not internal.
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#100 Drew

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:51 AM

Pete where did you read THAT from? Sony's own press release says 4k out of the 3G SDI. I tend not to read anything DPReview when it comes to video. I mean they got that Reid guy (the Ken Rockwell of video) to do the video segment reviews.

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