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Sony NEX-FS700


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#121 Nick Hope

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:23 PM

The hackers are busy and have cracked the NEX-5 so maybe a higher bitrate FS700 is a remote possibility in the future. More. More.

#122 A.Y.

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:43 AM

After all the FS700 is aimed at users who are likely to do serious post production work...for which 8-bit long GOP AVCHD 24mbps is totally inadequate.


Are FS700's uncompressed 4:2:2 HDMI or compressed RAW outputs good enough for serious post production work?

... 8-bit long GOP AVCHD 24mbps is totally inadequate. Even all-I Frame 24 mbps would be a significant improvement...


The reason why 24mbps AVCHD can look "ALMOST" as good as the uncompressed HDMI output even to experienced pros is because the P and B-frames don't contain whole images to drastically reduce the overall image compression required, especially to the I-frames. In order to achieve 24mbps All-I Frame, much higher image compression is needed since the overall image area to be compressed is substantially greater.

The claim that 24mbps All-I Frame will be significantly better than the 24mbps AVCHD doesn't seem mathematically possible. 50 to 72mbps, perhaps, 24mbps... this I have to see to believe! Pointing us to some articles, tests, and samples will be very helpful!

Edited by A.Y., 28 September 2012 - 10:33 AM.


#123 HDVdiver

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 04:52 PM

Are FS700's uncompressed 4:2:2 HDMI or compressed RAW outputs good enough for serious post production work?


I'm talking about the internal codec...not what comes out of HDMI. The point I'm making is that the INTERNAL codec is quite useless.


The reason why 24mbps AVCHD can look "ALMOST" as good as the uncompressed HDMI output even to experienced pros is because the P and B-frames don't contain whole images to drastically reduce the overall image compression required, especially to the I-frames. In order to achieve 24mbps All-I Frame, much higher image compression is needed since the overall image area to be compressed is substantially greater.

The claim that 24mbps All-I Frame will be significantly better than the 24mbps AVCHD doesn't seem mathematically possible. 50 to 72mbps, perhaps, 24mbps... this I have to see to believe! Pointing us to some articles, tests, and samples will be very helpful!



You really are missing the point of what I'm saying...i.e. to get the best image quality the codec requires All-Intra at a HIGHER bitrate. Why should 24 mbps be the determining bit-rate anyway...it's a figure Sony and Panasonic settled on (initially 17mbps) to make the average consumer happy that his SD card doesn't fill up too soon. In 2012 we have Class 10 cards with 128Gb...so storage limits are no longer an issue.

I'm not interested in debating whether 24 mbps is enough for All-Intra (it isn't...no way), or at what bit rate it matches Long GOP (which in itself can vary enormously in how it does the algorithmic guesswork). Obviously it isn't as simple as that...and depends on scene complexity, movement, etc. This is all discussed in very great detail in the Personalview forum ...to which I provided a link which discussed DR.

I've spent the last three years hacking the AVCHD my GH1's and then GH2's and doing my own image quality tests to determine optimal codec (internal parameter) tuning. I'm basing my opinion on my own experience and evaluation as well as reading the countless reports and comparative frame-grab comparisons that appear alsmost daily on Personalview.com. (and previously DVX forums). I use All-I frame at about 100-150 mbps (VBR) to get the best image out of my GH2's...believe me compared to to original 24 mbps the improvement is enormous. Finally...Panasonic themselves have admitted as much and the just released GH3 has All-I AVCHD at 70 mbps. In a $1200 camera.

That's actually why Vitally Kiselev developed P-Tool and started the whole hack GH1/GH2 Hack community ...because the 24 mbps AVCHD as imposed by Panasonic resulted in a mediocre image out of very good video cameras!

The new Canon 4k DSLR "records 8-bit 4:2:2 Motion JPEG 4K video to the camera’s CF memory card ". So here is one example for you of a better codec than AVCHD for 4k.

In my posts about the color banding issue with 8 bit 4:2:0 AVCHD even at high bit rates in the hacked GH2 (and other cameras), I point out that the old Motion JPEG codec is actually better for 8 bit color. It gets rid for the AVCHD banding arifacts. I'm now using MJPEG @ 100 mbps exclusively underwater.

So...MY personal view is that 24 mbps AVCHD Long GOP is crap for serious work. If you are happy with it in an $8,000 semi-pro Sony...well that's OK with me. I won't be the one using it...Posted Image

Edited by HDVdiver, 28 September 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#124 Nick Hope

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:58 PM

Any word on what the bitrate for the 4k firmware upgrade will be? Maybe they'll up the 1080p bitrate as well in the same upgrade.

#125 A.Y.

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:52 AM

[vimeohd]44527935[/vimeohd]

FS700 AVCHD 24Mb/s vs ProRes 422 220Mb/s

The person mentioned the upcoming firmware will support 4k 12bit RAW, but didn't mention if the bitrate of the 1080p will be increased. If the recent rumor is true, the 4k firmware should be out in a few weeks.

[vimeohd]39405035[/vimeohd]

If I'm not mistaken, only 7 frames in this video were from external recorder, the rest from AVCHD, according to the post production info.

IMO, getting the settings right before filming will drastically lessen the needs to push the image too far. This camera is definitely on my to-rent list.

Edited by A.Y., 29 September 2012 - 01:25 PM.


#126 HDVdiver

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:13 PM

FS700 AVCHD 24Mb/s vs ProRes 422 220Mb/s


This is the sort of meaningless Vimeo tests I was referring to. Instead of me saying anything more I will quote one of the comments:


"The real strength of 4:2:2 8 bit will be when dealing with sky gradients, green screen and other heavy detail scenes. The examples while good are not really stressing the codec for detail or motion too much..."

Matthew Allard Plus 3 months ago
Hi James, I'm sure you are spit on. I would imagine too that the AVCDHD would fall apart very quickly during a grade. Sorry I didn't have any more time to do any other tests.

Then why even bother...Posted Image

My own tests with my Nikon D800 /HDMI to Ninja2 (Prores) vs Internal 24 mbps AVCHD also show virtually no difference with a static subject. With moving subjects (particlarly complex scenes) the difference is significant.


The second video is very nice. Shows the great high frame rate and DR that the FS700 can do.

Edited by HDVdiver, 29 September 2012 - 10:07 PM.


#127 Drew

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:15 PM

Hmmm, good noise performance, 240fps @1080p, ND filters built in, real video features (XLR etc etc), 240fps @ 1080p, future 4k, oh did I mention 240fps @1080p @ $8k. hmmm It's self-explanatory for those who want those features.

Choose the gear that works for your needs, not what someone else thinks is the best. How many broadcast shows are using 24-28mbps AVCHD? Loads! Hell some even use GoPro for sequences. With 24hr programming in HD, many programs are now in AVCHD, especially as B/C cams, because they come cheap. Programs like Deadliest Catch etc are shot on HDV/AVCHD.

I realize that many people are looking for the best information to choose the right camera for their production, and being on WP, it would also mean for underwater use. Hopefully there'll be some clips (esp 240fps) to help out in Oct/Nov, once permission is granted to release the clips.


As for All-I vs IPB, remember the extra bandwidth isn't for image quality improvement but for EACH individual frame. If the interframe bandwidth is 24 to 28mbps for 24p GOP, going to 72mbps for 24 intra-frames isn't going to give much room for improvement in picture quality. So while the differences in image quality may be negligible but the speed and ease in post is significant. Since the GH3 isn't out yet, one has to look at Canon ALL-I vs IPB examples. On both 1Dx and 5D3, there isn't any significant difference in picture quality. The real difference is in post production for keying, real time effects layering and overall playback speed. It's just that much better.
FWIW, EBU wants 100mbps 422 for AVC-I codecs, so all the ALL-I don't meet EBU standards.

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#128 HDVdiver

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:16 AM

Choose the gear that works for your needs, not what someone else thinks is the best.



Yep...I agree! That's why I hack my cameras...:)

#129 joshuas

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:01 PM

Any news about any housing available, or housing project, for the FS700?


SPL Water Housings in San Diego custom made us an FS700 Housing. We just got it in this week. It's outfitted to work with Canon EF mount lenses along with the Metabones Canon EF to Sony E Mount adapter so you get iris control thru the camera. Sean at SPL can build it any way you like. We have about ten of his housings and they've been really reliable. Here's the link if you want to check out the FS700 housing. We're going to have it in the water next week. http://www.hawaiicam...er-housing/oahu

#130 jonny shaw

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

Interesting point
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=13347

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#131 Nick Hope

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

Interesting point
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=13347


Yes, but sounds like the F5 is missing some of the nice slomo functionality of the FS700. Only 60fps out of the box, with a 120fps as a "planned upgrade" is what I read.

Edited by Nick Hope, 19 November 2012 - 08:46 PM.


#132 jonny shaw

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:06 PM

Is it me or is the whole Sony lineup seam a little screwed up... F65 at the top F5 and F55 and then the F3, FS 100/ 700.... the prices all seam out of whack and hard to see where they fit and and they all seam to have some features and not all..... I feel they are being a little reactionary to the market as opposed to being a leader which they should be.

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#133 Drew

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:45 PM

Jonny
Sony is just trying to segment the market like any marketing guy learnt at B school. Only Red is trying to make a one camera for all (well many) uses, and it sacrifices certain things. The Japanese model (based on old B school thinking) is to segment the market. Panasonic and Sony thinks they have entrenched markets that won't and can't drop them for all sorts of reasons, or so they wish! :)

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#134 jonny shaw

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:03 PM

It will be really interesting to see how they go and I will be interested to see what the sales of the F65 were / are like. I am going to a preview Sony night in Dec to have a look at the F5/55 and will be keen to discuss with the rep.

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#135 ottoferdinand_s

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:32 PM

Anybody ever try the Amphibico housing for Sony Nex FS700?

Any problem with the eletronic control?

Any advice about this product?

Is there any other manufacturer produce housing for this camera?


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#136 CheungyDiver

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:43 PM


Hi Otto

 

I have tried the FS100 and I am getting a FS700 in soon. Similar housing and the port system too. Amphibico will look into other lens mount and adapters for EF etc. depends on the demand. The port is Aquatica ports and they have extensive extender rings or focus rings to choose from. Gears could be made as these days rapid prototyping is quick with 3D printing.

 

Electronic controls are great but for critical work get a spare just in case. Same for mechanical housing with spare parts but not as critical as electronic ones.

 

Amphibico seems to be the only one I know supports this. They have years of experience with electronic housings. Let me know if you need to find out more> Email here info@scubacam.com.sg

 

best

 

David


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