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Subspace Red One/Epic 3D housing


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#1 Drew

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:54 PM

In the realm of 3D housings, it seems WHOI and Pace are now getting some competition. Denis Lagrange has been using the Subspace Red 3D housing for various productions. Subspace is the maker of the Subeye camera and various housings for cameramen like Didier Noirot and Denis Lagrange. Now in the hands of fresh blood, they will be moving into the market for high end housings. They previously made housings for the F750/900/950 and other cameras.

From the grapevine, there is also a rumor that someone has finally solved the riddle of the dome port with beam splitter issue. Can it be not too long when 3D will have real wide angle shots as well?

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#2 jonny shaw

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:58 PM

Looks interesting, I know Ross Isaacs has just got his Deep Atom here in Australia, it's a beam splitter rig but through a flat port. The images for the Subspace housing also looks like a flat port. The only person I know who isn't shooting through a flat port is Pawel Achtel and he is using the same Nikonos lenses as for Deep X. His is side by side though.

Edited by jonny shaw, 22 April 2012 - 08:58 PM.

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#3 Drew

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:31 PM

Unfortunately, everyone under the sun shoots behind a flat port. However, a guy I spoke with claimed to have solved the riddle of optics physics. He wouldn't go into detail but apparently Jun/Jul is when it'll be out. Will be interesting to see if this person can beat out over 200 people who've tried to solve the issue! :)

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#4 CheungyDiver

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:59 PM

Unfortunately, everyone under the sun shoots behind a flat port. However, a guy I spoke with claimed to have solved the riddle of optics physics. He wouldn't go into detail but apparently Jun/Jul is when it'll be out. Will be interesting to see if this person can beat out over 200 people who've tried to solve the issue! :)


Pawel's housing is Side by Side and only fixed interaxial. Not sure how the housing could achieve 65mm IO with two Red Epics. Could always pull convergence in post as his set up could shoot 5K (Epic) so lots of res to play with. Not sure where to find 15mm Nikonos matching pair. The 3D at cinema screen size has to be precise as hell.

I have experimented with the 3D a bit in the past. I have used two small 2K videocam (genlocked) and housing, two matching and in water corrected wide angle lens/ and or dome ports and a beamsplitter in a flat port housing. What I need is a submersible beamsplitter.

Experimented with two Gopro and a DIY UW beamsplitter at first. I made a big enough mirror to avoid the camera seeing itself. The results are so so due to my lousy machining skills and GoPro does not really genlock and poor lighting. The 3D is closeup wide angle and it is quite interesting even though the Go Pro housing has flat ports.

I would imagine a Nikonos 15mm or Sns 12mm could be made to work. Again finding a good matching pair. Precision machining of the housing for the cam-body and lens. Making a submersible beamsplitter would be difficult and the seawater would destroy precision bearing and stages in no time not to mention the 50/50 mirrior.

I would love to go have another go using at least 2K cameras or even high speed. Looking for sponsors LOL

I think Kimmeineche (wetpixeller) made UW beamsplitter using two Nexus rigs...he may chime in.

Cheers

David

Edited by CheungyDiver, 23 April 2012 - 02:05 AM.

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#5 CheungyDiver

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:24 AM

Shooting through a flat port is definitely one of the easiest ways. I did a commercial shoot a few years ago using a SI 2K rig - see photos.

The SI2K system requires a tethered Ethernet cables to the computer for all the camera setting and controls. Distortion is minimal and we converged and did some enhancement in post. Client was happy. Did the commercial shoot less than a day. The housing took 10 days to make and cost less than 500 dollars :) It was an one off though. Could do the same for two epics.

cheers

David

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#6 Drew

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:31 AM

Pawel's housing is Side by Side and only fixed interaxial. Not sure how the housing could achieve 65mm IO with two Red Epics. Could always pull convergence in post as his set up could shoot 5K (Epic) so lots of res to play with. Not sure where to find 15mm Nikonos matching pair. The 3D at cinema screen size has to be precise as hell.

Post convergence can work if the subject doesn't get too close. I mean look at Titanic 3D! :) Jonny should know more since he was there for the tests.



Experimented with two Gopro and a DIY UW beamsplitter at first. I made a big enough mirror to avoid the camera seeing itself. The results are so so due to my lousy machining skills and GoPro does not really genlock and poor lighting. The 3D is closeup wide angle and it is quite interesting even though the Go Pro housing has flat ports.

Well you just have to extend the Go Pro 3D sync wires. I mean if they made it for a row of cameras, what's the big deal about a water proof version?

I would imagine a Nikonos 15mm or Sns 12mm could be made to work. Again finding a good matching pair. Precision machining of the housing for the cam-body and lens. Making a submersible beamsplitter would be difficult and the seawater would destroy precision bearing and stages in no time not to mention the 50/50 mirrior.

Yes but think of what you can achieve if it worked. The guys at Pace/WHOI have the budget but somehow never did it. I should really check with them on this.


Oh yes, the secret dome port 3D project is for beam splitter and not parallel.

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#7 CheungyDiver

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:13 AM

Well you just have to extend the Go Pro 3D sync wires. I mean if they made it for a row of cameras, what's the big deal about a water proof version?


Yes but think of what you can achieve if it worked. The guys at Pace/WHOI have the budget but somehow never did it. I should really check with them on this.


Oh yes, the secret dome port 3D project is for beam splitter and not parallel.
[/quote]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Go Pro wires was not difficult :) even for UW.

You could introduce me to Cameroon/Pace? WHOI - I have tried. Nothing :)


Its no secret at all - at least for those of us who tinkers with UW housing gear. I think I know who you are talking about with regard to cracking the wide angle 3D underwater. Not quite there yet as his rig is limited in range. In fact he was in my shop talking about it and had a look at my contraptions. Secret secret...

See this link by Kim Meineche http://www.3dphotography.dk/
His two Nexus housing is attached to a tiny beam splitter - yes its UW beamsplitter. He used it for digital stills. For cinema 3D precision is everything. Even slight current could make the rig flex and then 3D rig will be out of wack. I could employ a couple of rocket scientist to build it I suppose.....LOL


Cheers

David

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#8 Kimmeineche

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:00 AM

cut-----------------------------------

I think Kimmeineche (wetpixeller) made UW beamsplitter using two Nexus rigs...he may chime in.

Cheers

David


Hi David!

Yes I made an UW-beamsplitter for my dual Nikon D200 setup in Nexushousings (Think it was in 2009). For stills it works very good except from some focusing problems, but since I only use it for macro (2 x 60mm nikkor micro) I think I can't ask for better results. In other words, one macro lens can be hard enough to focus at the right point.... and here we talk about 2! :-)

The 50/50 mirror seems to resist seawater very well, but sand and other particles is a much bigger isue so I have to change the mirror now and then as it becomes scatched, depending on how nice I am able to treat it when I enter the water from a sandy beach, etc....
Well.... many of my beamsplitter shots goes directly to the paperbasket but some of the results I am very satisfied with, but for video I think it will not work, due to the problems menssioned in the thread.

Like others I am VERY courious to see the design of the beamsplitter behind the domeport, since I really can't imagine any solution with more than 90degrees coverage from a beamsplitter, but who knows and I really LOVE to read about DIY projects!!! :-)

Not to be off-topic but so far I have about 100 degrees of coverage on my Fuji W3 mounted in a cyclopital3d wideangle adpator behind wideanglelenses from Ryanox and a homebaked dual domeport (Homebuild housing). i am still experimenting a lot, so tha'ts why I have been rather silent about the project.........but so far:

A small example from the pool, recorded in the evening with only artifical light available together with my LightMonkey dual 50watt HID's:
And another example from a local divespot with about 5m visibility which is faily good conditions for the locallity:
And last a short clip from a trip to Norway when we dived the wreck of D/S Spring: http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

(BEWARE: This is among my VERY FIRST records and experince with video so don't expect it to be perfect!).

The very best regards from Kim Meineche! :-)

Edited by Kimmeineche, 23 April 2012 - 08:09 AM.


#9 Drew

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:29 AM

Like others I am VERY courious to see the design of the beamsplitter behind the domeport, since I really can't imagine any solution with more than 90degrees coverage from a beamsplitter, but who knows and I really LOVE to read about DIY projects!!! :-)

Funny but 90 is probably the most popular FOV for cinematographers underwater. Any more and distortion shows too much and a fisheye lens limits how the camera is panned.


(BEWARE: This is among my VERY FIRST records and experince with video so don't expect it to be perfect!).


Kim
Even Cameron/Pace people aren't immune to critique for their 3D stuff so don't feel too shy. Only mothers see perfection! :)

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#10 CheungyDiver

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:26 PM

Hi David!

Yes I made an UW-beamsplitter for my dual Nikon D200 setup in Nexushousings (Think it was in 2009). For stills it works very good except from some focusing problems, but since I only use it for macro (2 x 60mm nikkor micro) I think I can't ask for better results. In other words, one macro lens can be hard enough to focus at the right point.... and here we talk about 2! :-)

The 50/50 mirror seems to resist seawater very well, but sand and other particles is a much bigger isue so I have to change the mirror now and then as it becomes scatched, depending on how nice I am able to treat it when I enter the water from a sandy beach, etc....
Well.... many of my beamsplitter shots goes directly to the paperbasket but some of the results I am very satisfied with, but for video I think it will not work, due to the problems menssioned in the thread.

Like others I am VERY courious to see the design of the beamsplitter behind the domeport, since I really can't imagine any solution with more than 90degrees coverage from a beamsplitter, but who knows and I really LOVE to read about DIY projects!!! :-)

Not to be off-topic but so far I have about 100 degrees of coverage on my Fuji W3 mounted in a cyclopital3d wideangle adpator behind wideanglelenses from Ryanox and a homebaked dual domeport (Homebuild housing). i am still experimenting a lot, so tha'ts why I have been rather silent about the project.........but so far:

A small example from the pool, recorded in the evening with only artifical light available together with my LightMonkey dual 50watt HID's:
And another example from a local divespot with about 5m visibility which is faily good conditions for the locallity:
And last a short clip from a trip to Norway when we dived the wreck of D/S Spring: http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

(BEWARE: This is among my VERY FIRST records and experince with video so don't expect it to be perfect!).

The very best regards from Kim Meineche! :-)


Hi Kim

Great to hear you are making strides with the Fuji W3 and I enjoyed the 3D videos. I have been machining down a 100deg. megapixel lens wide angle converter on my Sony TD10. Getting close to completing. Getting two to fit exactly is difficult. Even with slight vignette the wide conversion seems to work. The next stage is of course get rid of the cut-offs. Then its time for UW in a TD10 Sealux housing. At the moment I am a bit distracted with all the 4K stuff. I will post some if it is successful. In any case I will show even failures in my blog.

Happy DIY and keep up the good work.

cheers

David

Proprietor of Scubacam, Singapore. Commercial videocameraman. Also shoot digital stills. I modify and built stuff. I love technology. Camera: Red Epic/ Scarlet and soon Dragon

Email: info@scubacam.com.sg

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#11 jonny shaw

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:33 PM

Where would you get a Nikonos lens from.... Pawel, he has a stack and I mean triple figures at least. Some are brand new, others basically new and some used. I believe he has a person who can fully service them as well. He also has a test bench so that the lenses can be matched

Drew, I never got to test the 3D housing as it is built as yet but I'm sure I will get to have a look when it's ready.

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#12 Drew

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:49 AM

Really? I thought Pawel was trying to show the peeps at Pace his results. Ah well, keep us apprised please.

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#13 CheungyDiver

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:58 AM

Where would you get a Nikonos lens from.... Pawel, he has a stack and I mean triple figures at least. Some are brand new, others basically new and some used. I believe he has a person who can fully service them as well. He also has a test bench so that the lenses can be matched

Drew, I never got to test the 3D housing as it is built as yet but I'm sure I will get to have a look when it's ready.




I have tested and tried to match around 8 number of these Nikonos 15mm wide lens for UW 3D work. I am still looking. With digital still cameras now people are throwing them away. It is really just a wide angle lens with a dome. The dome is glass and has a slight meniscus near the edges - to correct distortion and CA I believe. At only 75 deg its really not that wide. I think because there were many of these around in the past and no alternatives like it it has gain some mythical status as the sharpest underwater lens. Personally the Nikon RS wide lenses are much sharper.

The difficulty is not only the optic but the lens mechanics and flange. Quite filmsy. How to make both focus exactly at the same position? Its not made like cine lenses. I have used Nikonos V and have a good collection of flooded cameras. These are film cameras and could be fixed but nowadays with electronics there is not a chance. Maybe the A-Star guys could make a better adapter. I would add another o-ring so that it is better "seated" on the housing mount and a lock ring. I am sure there are fathom optics that could be made for 90deg plus wide UW lens.



cheers

David

Proprietor of Scubacam, Singapore. Commercial videocameraman. Also shoot digital stills. I modify and built stuff. I love technology. Camera: Red Epic/ Scarlet and soon Dragon

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#14 Kimmeineche

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:20 AM

Hi David!

Thank you very much for the kind words about my Fuji W3-project! :-)

I am really curious to see the results with the TD10 and even more to see your wide angle converter. Must be difficult work that needs very special tools? If I knew what cyclopital3d was up to made http://www.cyclopita...ccessories.html, before I started the Fuji W3-project, I probably would have buyed the TD10 or the NEX3D1E...... even problems on how to reaching controls that might only is available through the touchscreen and/or remotecontrol has to be solved as well.... it could really be interesting to see some detailed pictures and a first hand review on the sealuxhousing to see how they solved the problems!

It looks like Cyclopital has made an even wider lens for the JVC GS-TD1 & GY-HMZ1U ProHD...... but compared to what I know about video so far, I can't tell if the quality of the output is best from the Sony's or the JVC's.... all four cameras are probably very far from the quality of a 4K camera which looks to become available for a still lower price ... IF there will ever be a 3D 4K camera with dual lenses? Well, a dual rig is of course a lot more flexible, but also much more timeconsuming in post-work, not to menssion the size and the problems you will have on the plane, on the boat and in the water with a dual camera rig! :-)

I really looking forward to know more as your moving forward with your project, David!

Good luck and cheers again from Kim! :-)

Hi Kim

Great to hear you are making strides with the Fuji W3 and I enjoyed the 3D videos. I have been machining down a 100deg. megapixel lens wide angle converter on my Sony TD10. Getting close to completing. Getting two to fit exactly is difficult. Even with slight vignette the wide conversion seems to work. The next stage is of course get rid of the cut-offs. Then its time for UW in a TD10 Sealux housing. At the moment I am a bit distracted with all the 4K stuff. I will post some if it is successful. In any case I will show even failures in my blog.

Happy DIY and keep up the good work.

cheers

David


Edited by Kimmeineche, 24 April 2012 - 12:08 PM.


#15 Kimmeineche

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

Hi Drew!

Funny but 90 is probably the most popular FOV for cinematographers underwater. Any more and distortion shows too much and a fisheye lens limits how the camera is panned.


Actually I have never been thinking about that, but yes... you are probably right!
I might still be to addicted to my experiences with still-photography and mostly think about the conditions I am up to in the nordic waters with poor light and often bad visibility that makes me willing to accept some distortion to move closer to my subjects for better colors and light?! :-)


Kim
Even Cameron/Pace people aren't immune to critique for their 3D stuff so don't feel too shy. Only mothers see perfection! :)


Right again.... but video is just so new to me that I don't want people to expect too much from my posted clips... furthermore, the Fuji W3 is probably in the lowest range for video-cameras at all... but at least I feel that I learn a lot from what I get from this... in the meantime I am thinking/dreaming about what 3D-camcorders becomes available in the future for a reasonable price..... even some thourghts on a dual Nikon D800 rig has come to my mind, to be able to do both stills and video with the same equipment... but then again..... lots of post-work, problems with convergence specially on the videoside........ problems, problems, thourghts, thourghts............. and probably plenty of time to save the money before another project persuade me to open my wallet! :-)

Best regards again from Kim! :-)

#16 CheungyDiver

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:31 PM

Hi David!

Thank you very much for the kind words about my Fuji W3-project! :-)

I am really curious to see the results with the TD10 and even more to see your wide angle converter. Must be difficult work that needs very special tools? If I knew what cyclopital3d was up to made http://www.cyclopita...ccessories.html, before I started the Fuji W3-project, I probably would have buyed the TD10 or the NEX3D1E...... even problems on how to reaching controls that might only is available through the touchscreen and/or remotecontrol has to be solved as well.... it could really be interesting to see some detailed pictures and a first hand review on the sealuxhousing to see how they solved the problems!

It looks like Cyclopital has made an even wider lens for the JVC GS-TD1 & GY-HMZ1U ProHD...... but compared to what I know about video so far, I can't tell if the quality of the output is best from the Sony's or the JVC's.... all four cameras are probably very far from the quality of a 4K camera which looks to become available for a still lower price ... IF there will ever be a 3D 4K camera with dual lenses? Well, a dual rig is of course a lot more flexible, but also much more timeconsuming in post-work, not to menssion the size and the problems you will have on the plane, on the boat and in the water with a dual camera rig! :-)

I really looking forward to know more as your moving forward with your project, David!

Good luck and cheers again from Kim! :-)



Wow that Cyclopital adapter is exactly what I needed. Thanks a million for the link Kim. This saves me lathe milling out two separate wide angle converters. Hand milling is difficult. Now I could check out the Sealux housing. I have both TD 10 and NEx3D 1e. Selling the TD10 (this is 720p only) and it is full auto 3d. The Nex 3D1e is 1080p (25) on each eye and adjustable 3D. I never tested JVC but the footage from the TD10 and 3D1e is very good within 1.5m to 10m. Good enough for television. The Sealux housing has mechanical control to adjust 3D depth. In theory if the Cyclopital works on land it should work UW. I am really excited now that the conversion works.

Thanks again. I will show some results once I get some time to do it.

Cheers

David

Edited by CheungyDiver, 24 April 2012 - 03:56 PM.

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#17 Kimmeineche

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:39 AM

Hi David!

I'm just glad to be able to help you! I think the cyclopital3d makes some very interesting stuff and Tanja and Ken are both very kind persons!
I have both their Fuji W3 wide angle auxallery-adapter and the macro adpter......Without these adapters I wouldn't even think about taking my Fuji W3 underwater.
Like you I am very sure that the Sony TD1 adapters will work underwater as well.... in other words: If it doesn't I don't know any lenses that makes sence to take it underwater. My only concerns will be the small stereobasis of only 31mm.....should be working very good for CFWA but how about the 3D-effect on subjects like wrecks where you want to have as much as possible of the wreck in the frame? I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best and really wish you good luck... and will wait in excitement for pictures/clips of your results!

BTW: I expect that you have already seen the pictures of my housing that I posted in another thread some time ago... in case you havn't there is a couple of links here:







Cheers again from KIM! :-)


Wow that Cyclopital adapter is exactly what I needed. Thanks a million for the link Kim. This saves me lathe milling out two separate wide angle converters. Hand milling is difficult. Now I could check out the Sealux housing. I have both TD 10 and NEx3D 1e. Selling the TD10 (this is 720p only) and it is full auto 3d. The Nex 3D1e is 1080p (25) on each eye and adjustable 3D. I never tested JVC but the footage from the TD10 and 3D1e is very good within 1.5m to 10m. Good enough for television. The Sealux housing has mechanical control to adjust 3D depth. In theory if the Cyclopital works on land it should work UW. I am really excited now that the conversion works.

Thanks again. I will show some results once I get some time to do it.

Cheers

David


Edited by Kimmeineche, 25 April 2012 - 12:11 PM.


#18 Drew

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:54 AM

Wow that Cyclopital adapter is exactly what I needed. Thanks a million for the link Kim. This saves me lathe milling out two separate wide angle converters. Hand milling is difficult. Now I could check out the Sealux housing. I have both TD 10 and NEx3D 1e. Selling the TD10 (this is 720p only) and it is full auto 3d. The Nex 3D1e is 1080p (25) on each eye and adjustable 3D. I never tested JVC but the footage from the TD10 and 3D1e is very good within 1.5m to 10m. Good enough for television. The Sealux housing has mechanical control to adjust 3D depth. In theory if the Cyclopital works on land it should work UW. I am really excited now that the conversion works.


Post some results please! :)

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#19 CheungyDiver

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:37 PM

It looks like Cyclopital has made an even wider lens for the JVC GS-TD1 & GY-HMZ1U ProHD...... but compared to what I know about video so far, I can't tell if the quality of the output is best from the Sony's or the JVC's.... all four cameras are probably very far from the quality of a 4K camera which looks to become available for a still lower price ... IF there will ever be a 3D 4K camera with dual lenses? Well, a dual rig is of course a lot more flexible, but also much more timeconsuming in post-work, not to menssion the size and the problems you will have on the plane, on the boat and in the water with a dual camera rig! :-)

I really looking forward to know more as your moving forward with your project, David!

Good luck and cheers again from Kim! :-)
[/quote]


Hi Kim

These fixed 3D camcorders are limited to Internet or television work IMHO. Even then without better coding of at least 4:2:2. and better lenses the footage is never going to hit the big screen. Good thing is they are small and handy. They are totally genlocked and matching lenses and gear. I could shoot in a tight corner.

What I find puzzling with the Cyclopital is the macro dioptre holder. How is it possible to use one dioptre? Left and right lens see slightly differently due to the angle and curvature of the dioptre. I know that due to the small distances the interaxial displacement is going to be tiny. Not sure when it says helps the overlapping of the two images. Have you tried this kit?

I would get the wide angle kit just to try especially the 15mm. If like you said its CFWA shooting something like a shipwreck is going to be interesting.

I can't wait.

regards

David

Proprietor of Scubacam, Singapore. Commercial videocameraman. Also shoot digital stills. I modify and built stuff. I love technology. Camera: Red Epic/ Scarlet and soon Dragon

Email: info@scubacam.com.sg

http://www.scubacam.com.sg/


#20 CheungyDiver

CheungyDiver

    Tiger Shark

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  • Interests:Lots. I take things apart, modify things and make things.

Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:44 PM

Post some results please! :)



Hey Drew

I have tonnes of 3D footage from last years S-Africa shoot. The flying G.Whites. False bay with Sea Lions and Seven Gills etc. You any good with Sony Vega Pro? It could edit TD 10 Sony 3D natively. I need a faster editor (faster than me LOL). Sure I will show some more footage soon. Kinda busy lately :)


cheers

David

Edited by CheungyDiver, 25 April 2012 - 05:44 PM.

Proprietor of Scubacam, Singapore. Commercial videocameraman. Also shoot digital stills. I modify and built stuff. I love technology. Camera: Red Epic/ Scarlet and soon Dragon

Email: info@scubacam.com.sg

http://www.scubacam.com.sg/