50 replies to this topic

[Davide DB]

I'll wait until my next trip in August and until I get more feedback from several other selected users (so far so good) before I make a decision about selling these lights...

Let me know if you decide to sell these lights

[HDVdiver]

Thanks for pointing out the video. Very nicely shot and edited. He is indeed using two of the Sartek 10,000 Lumen lights.

I'm in the process of preparing to shoot a documentary later this year in the cave/cavern systems at Mount Gambier, South Australia. Reading Joe's blog and watching his excellent videos has given me a couple of ideas about a re-design of the LED 9000 specifically for caving use!

In your "Capo D'Acqua: a short tale" it looks like your model was using two LED lights together in tandem?

[Davide DB]

Thanks for pointing out the video. Very nicely shot and edited...

Yes, very nice indeed, both episodes.

In your "Capo D'Acqua: a short tale" it looks like your model was using two LED lights together in tandem?

Yes, we sort it out with what available at the moment. We had a couple of poor's man Darkbuster HID 21W Video lights. We taped them together for handheld use.

The wet connection used by sartek is very common for cave/tech diving. You have a separate canister/battery pack that can be connected to a primary light, a video light and even to a heater.
Given the huge improvements on video lights with led and lithium batteries, IMHO I prefer having a self contained video light. In a overhead environment, managing all those cable is a PITA. In a cave you would have a primary light with a separate canister, so one cable running from your hand to your hip. Then another canister with a E/O cord and a Y connector.


All those cords running on your scuba gear requires a lot of attention and they need some time to be accustomed with them.

For example this is another nice cave video shot with two Mangrove VLC-46, hence Led and self-contained. A far slick and clean setup. One of the divers/models has a couple of hid lights as the one depitched above. The only downside of the Mangrove is their weight in water: 480gr. It's very difficult to obtain a balance rig with them.
The lights strive a bit covering the fisheye FOV but it's the same with my 8mm and FIX lights.

[vimeohd]35833967[/vimeohd]


Bye

Edited by Davide DB, 27 July 2012 - 12:44 AM.

[Davide DB]

I'm in the process of preparing to shoot a documentary later this year in the cave/cavern systems at Mount Gambier, South Australia. Reading Joe's blog and watching his excellent videos has given me a couple of ideas about a re-design of the LED 9000 specifically for caving use!

Any news on your monster light?

[SPP]

Any news on your monster light?

Hi Davide,

That light has a long history since May 2011.

http://www.candlepow...ighlight=archon


You can buy it here :
http://www.easylight...light_p762.html


Google it as : 10,000 lumens dive light

It comes under a few different brands today. Archon or Xi-Ware, same company and boss. They are not bad, I got two of it but I do not like its battery pack design much. I consider it dangerous if user is not "electrically smart". The light power is fantastic but it is approx -900 grams in water with battery, so it is heavy. I think I saw a video somewhere in this forum where a diver uses 1 of this Archon/XinWare middle and two Keldan on the side and the housing is medium size, not full blown DLSR, I forgot who the diver is, sorry.

No safety vent valve too, any light using as big or bigger than 32650 lithium ion battery , I would want a safety vent valve for in case of flooding. Let the light be total loss, as long as not my face being a total loss ha ha ha. Even low cost iTorch Video Pro4 uses a safety vent valve, it uses 32650 lithium ion battery. Funny enough my Sola 2000 has no safety venty valve.

ON/OFF sequence is not friendly, spin to ON. SPIN OFF>>>wait 2 seconds>>SPIN ON again and power reduce. It has 3 stages of brightness.
Value for money is very high , color temp is nice and beam spread super smooth. See my simple test.


Have fun shopping....

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Edited by SPP, 26 September 2012 - 02:05 AM.

[HDVdiver]

That light has a long history since May 2011.

Ha ha ...There are many iterations of this light with "Archon" being the most common so far. Product development and copying (and copying the copies) has a long tradition in Chinese manufacture. I think the original idea came from a Spanish diver who had wet dreams about co-producing his ideas for a powerful LED light in China. It never got very far...his ideas were sucked into the Chinese get-rich-quick vortex ...were ripped off and copied...and copied...and we have the Archon (...and others).

The problem is that often those doing the copying have no idea of end user requirements...and different "manufacturers" (i.e. copiers) can put out a very different product internally even though it might look the same externally...and even have the same name.

A contact in China who does some manufacturing for me brought these lights to my attention earlier this year. To cut a long story short he sent me a few versions to check out. In their off-the shelf form they are...er...of very limited value for serious UW videography. I spent some effort modding them to my requirements (myself here, and sourcing alternative components in the USA and China). Most importantly I discarded the crappy LED array and replaced it with a much more efficient (and expensive) array that's better suited for videography. Also, the original attachment handle is quite useless for my needs so another mod. Then the battery...(long story).

I've also found that the quality of machining can vary greatly from one unit to another...with one particular light being practically usless due to the poor thread-cutting where the light-head screws on to the cannister.

I haven't decided if I'm going to market my modded "version" since I knew that many buyers would just see the cheapo Chinese version and wonder at the price difference. Internal changes such as LED array, battery, etc are not that obvious. On the other hand (according to comments in Candlepower Forums) the "Archons" unmodified are selling for $1400 in Europe...go figure.

Edited by HDVdiver, 26 September 2012 - 03:50 AM.

[Davide DB]

On the other hand (according to comments in Candlepower Forums) the "Archons" unmodified are selling for $1400 in Europe...go figure.

As usual... normally you would have 700$ = 700Euro at best.

It's a shame because reading all the comments I was pulling the trigger on one in USA...
It's very cheap and it would be wonderful for my buddy/model: next month we have a couple of dives on a 85m/285ft deep nearly intact wreck....

[HDVdiver]

Oh...and I forgot to mention. The claimed 10,000 Lumen output of the "Archon versions" I tested was nonsense. If I am generous I'd say they were almost 8,000 Lumens. When I discussed this with the Chinese distributors (who discussed it with their factory supplier) they were good enough to say that my estimate was about right. Again...go figure!

Even with my modded LED array they are about 9,000 Lumens...although my main reason for swapping arrays was to improve Lumen/watt performance and particularly chromaticity.

Edited by HDVdiver, 26 September 2012 - 06:04 AM.

[Davide DB]

Ok, please stop now. End of a dream.

Write here again when you have a working one at 700$

And anyway for that price, 7000 lumen it's a steal... if it doesn't explode

Edited by Davide DB, 26 September 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[HDVdiver]

And anyway for that price, 7000 lumen it's a steal... if it doesn't explode

Ha ha...I agree. That is also why I'm reluctant about "cheap Chinese" solutions involving Lithium batteries (or other types for that matter).

I learned my lesson the hard way when I was building HID video lights and during a trip to China was given a "great deal" in order to change the NiMH 14.4v packs that I sourced from China. The factory looked OK (I was in the Ningbo industrial zone to source Ballasts). They looked very well made...on the outside. Too good to be true.

During testing back in Australia one pack exploded like a small grenade. No real harm done as I only ever charge batteries (ANY batteries) when I'm around to keep an eye on them...but I was cleaning the room for several days to get rid of the black residue off the walls and ceiling. Had they been Lithium (which burns like a Magnesium flare) I would have probably lost the house.

Could be worse...a German dive buddy who is a Medico once showed me some photos of a German cave diver's pulped hand (no fingers left) when his DIY high powered light exploded underwater. That image has always stuck in my mind. I have the greatest respect for what high capacity batteries can do when they go wrong.

Edited by HDVdiver, 26 September 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[SPP]

Hi Guys,

Well, I do notice some Chinese factory tried to make dive video lights if not dive torch. For land torch they been successful , example Fenix. It is about who the final distributor is and what he the distributor can influence on the final design and components used by OEM. For UW use, its another story if OEM does not have a real hardcore diver and with electrical engineering background, its tough to make a good & safe product.

I have one Taiwan made light, http://www.brightsta...ore?id=40&Cid=6
Its supposedly 700 lumens and uses big 12V battery pack of 4.4A , can do near 3 hours burn time at full power, its OK but when I ripped open the unit ......there is another "danger" about it. Its 3cm diameter coin shape voltage regulator board is not integrated on the LED module head with cooling fins and all but is tucked away from LED module and next to the battery pack ( crazy !! ), only covered by a thin thermal fabric like shield. This kind of fabric is fireproof but the VR board being so hot at 91C when I tested it OUTSIDE the torch housing at 30C ambient temp.................is simply too careless a design where Lit-Ion battery manufacturers will consider 60C as max operating temperature ( some less ) and safety will need to kick in. The torch body being 100% plastic also can not remove heat like aluminum body can.

The claimed 10K lumens Archon brand is what I got. As someone who loves to experiment with torch, the Archon at that price is decent for collection. The Archon brand machining is not bad, the handle is not useless if the light is to be used as a handheld light but as video light using ball mount, it is indeed wobbly.

There is no rocket science for a battery pack. Get a Panasonic safe battery and get a very good controller board with complete safety features and have it run cool at maximum discharge/power. The 2006 Sony and major brands lit-ion laptop battery explosions nightmare have made design much safer today......if you buy the right components.


HDV,
Agree this light 10K claimed lumens must be discounted haha, but still at USD700 it is affordable and one can buy it as toy or collection to keep. No matter what and how you mod this light, unless you add a safety vent valve and a different ON/OFF switch mechanism and re-do the battery pack, this light I still term quite "dangerous" because the battery pack is very powerful to drive such LED array and the spin-the-light-head to power ON , is not a good method for a torch this big and powerful . Why don't you show me a photo of the bottom part of the light head where the electrical contacts are and the battery pack you are using front view where it has its electrical contact for the light head. Who knows I can give you constructive input as a potential client.

If you said you will change the LED array, what brand and model will it be ? I will take a look at the manufacturer spec and see what improvement you can offer. I really don't mind paying a bit more for better performance. There is no custom LED array for anyone who can't commit to a minimum quantity. At this 100 watt power level , no dive light manufacturer/s can achieve enough sales to commit to a custom LED array design, so you will be using what is available in the market and not a custom one. So like how Intel loves to co-advertise with some PC brand "Intel Inside", is a good thing if you use a very good LED array.


Davide,
I wouldn't say this light is a time bomb. But the battery pack physical design as-is from OEM, even if safe type battery is used ( it is ) and decent battery controller board with all safety features thrown in, its physical lay out is why I said the battery pack is "dangerous". If a user is careful, it is OK but if a user is careless on the battery pack handling, it can be "dangerous". If HDV post the photo of his light head and the battery pack, I will tell you what I mean, assuming it still retain OEM physical lay out.


What I notice sometime from China made products, their product is decent based on the component used, but lacking of physical "logical" design. One simple example. A spin-to-ON light is not something we want in a powerful unit. The o-ring then becomes dynamic in its application and what ever volcanic micro sand like Lembeh or Tulamben has, may one day ruined those o-rings. Magnetic type switch is more suitable as it can turn on the light without disturbing any o-ring seating in a big dive light. One can go the mechanical switch route, say push button, but all push button switch if it is a pure mechanical switch, will also need dynamic o-ring. Some push button switch is not pure mechanical when its tip has a magnet, so the switch assy can be in a wet environment or the sea water ambient surrounding and the actual light switching is delivered by magnetic field to a more robust waterproof chamber of the light. One such switch is found on Scubapro Meridian dive computer, this is one example I know of. The reason for Scubapro design it as such is, the shell of the dive comp can be a 100% hole free, except of course for the back cover when you replace the battery. Any real physical switching action where one side is ambient sea water and the other side is a dry chamber , then o-rings must be used as seal and they do fail eventually. For a watch type dive computer, its so small space allocation will make push buttons on the watch a design challenge if waterproof integrity and reliability is to match the old legendary Uwatec Aladin Pro grey dive computer or the newer Uwatec Galileo family.

Later guys,
SP.

[HDVdiver]

SPP

"At this 100 watt power level , no dive light manufacturer/s can achieve enough sales to commit to a custom LED array design, so you will be using what is available in the market and not a custom one."

True for a mod excercise...not necessarily for production. Using an array is not really the answer anyway for best performance.

I am using my own custom design PCB quad XML's (cherry-picked for chromaticity) in my current production SEASTAR LED 4000's...most efficient 4000 lumen light currently available (I've done the tests compared with Keldan Lunas). Have a look at my website ...you will see the HDVSEATEK logo on the PCB. The array I used in my Archon mod was not as efficient as the PCB/XML's in my LED 4000...but not bad "for of the shelf". Much better than original Archon Chinese array.

As I said my mod was for fun...I have a much better/safer 9000 lumen light based on CREE XML's of my own design/manufacture about to be released.

[Davide DB]

Davide,
I wouldn't say this light is a time bomb. But the battery pack physical design as-is from OEM, even if safe type battery is used ( it is ) and decent battery controller board with all safety features thrown in, its physical lay out is why I said the battery pack is "dangerous". If a user is careful, it is OK but if a user is careless on the battery pack handling, it can be "dangerous". If HDV post the photo of his light head and the battery pack, I will tell you what I mean, assuming it still retain OEM physical lay out.

Hi SP,

thoughtful considerations.

Could you explain in which way the layout of the original battery pack is dangerous?
The original pack which type of elements and how many of them uses?

For the moment my buddy has a double 55W HID video heads form Yellow Diving. Nice design and good quality/price ratio.
The problem is that again you need a separate canister. So in a tech dive, a "model" will wear a primary light (with its canister) and another complete light.
Otherwise for video camera arms you use two of them with one canister and Y E/O cord.

[SPP]

Hi Davide,

See the photos.
The battery pack terminals, the + and (-) is too close. This they got to do because they use a spin-to-ON design and not wanting the torch barrel to carry negative electric flow. The barrel not being an electrical conductor is good but spacing of + and (-) terminals that close and for a battery one need to charge outside the torch, that is dangerous. By accident, any 5mm or bigger metal ( example a coin, a paper clip ) object touching the two battery terminals will "weld" that metal due to the potential energy this battery pack has. The battery pack should come with a safety plastic cap for during storage and charging. NOPE there is no safety cap.

The torch came with a simple aluminium carry box with low density foam shaped to the torch and the battery & charger, they lined the box with sort of cloth .....OK, at least inside of alu case is non conducting. The charger 220V ends are two metal prong, like any wall charger would be, if by accident during transport that prong touched the battery terminal...........BANG !!

If you see closely, I made a clear plastic round disc with blue masking tape ( so that I can see the clear plastic...he he he ), I use that plastic as an insulator.
So when I transport the light, the battery is inside the torch barrel, safer this way.

To why I use plastic sheet while battery in torch barrel for storage/transport, is because due to the spin-to-ON design, it always have risk of accidental power ON during transport.

What is keeping battery pack terminals from not touching light head terminals are :
- The light head 2 negative terminals has harder springs and protrude higher than the single positive terminal.
- In theory, accidental ON due to battery weight or inertia will be not possible ( as long as the springs are still good and torch does not hit acceleration of 10+ G .....ha ha ha ).
- The two negative terminals springs, offer approx 2+ kg of resistance before it will sink down to same level as positive terminal and light will be ON.
- The battery pack weights 275 grams.

I do not believe in springs for long term, I want real physical barrier.
So the safety drill is, during storage or transport, install that plastic insulator sheet I made DIY and turn the barrel just enough to have a loose battery where it will not exert force to light head terminals, but two o-rings of the barrel must not be exposed and catch dirt.


THE BATTERY PACK
It is a 12 x 18650 lit ion cell of 2500 mA
The arrangement is 2 x 18650 as parallel SET
This parallel SET is then wired in SERIES of 6.
So total is 25.2 volt 5000 mA if battery is fully charged
To parallel 2 of 18650 permanently is not so good a practice, even though each of the 18650 lit-ion is a safe battery type with protection and they are selected from similar batch.

The battery pack terminals is actually a controller unit board.
It does the following :
- When charging, each 6 SET of the 2 x 18650 is isolated and charged as individual 3.7V 5000 mA lit ion battery
- When powering the light head, 6 x 2 SET run in series and each SET is monitored for safety bla bla bla overheat bla bla bla
I know they wanted to keep the barrel short, otherwise they can use 6 x 36250 of 5000mA lit-ion.....which will be most suitable for the controller board used.

I would pay extra US$100 dollars for :
- Safety vent valve. In my opinion any dive lights with Lit-Ion battery power of 5000mA or more, MUST HAVE SAFETY VENT VALVE. In fact any torch which has the potential power to hurt us when flooded and battery gassing off bla bla bla, MUST HAVE SAFETY VENT VALVE.
- Magnetic type rotational switch with locking mechanism. They can make the barrel 3 cm longer to house the switch assy, place the rotator outside the barrel. Many land version torch has this kind of magnetic rotational switch and some dive lights too.

As for the color temperature of this LED Array, its fine with me.
I prefer this LED array with so many small led than any array with 4-8 big leds . This LED array is actually for street use, so the spread is really nice. No hot spot whatsoever. The LED array on Archon is something like this : http://ledoemparts.c...LED_Arrays.html
As long as I can get 60 minutes burn time full power, I am happy. The color temp of this light is much better than my Sola 2000 which for some reason it has an un-even spread and too cool color, compared to my Sola 800 which was damn good beam spread and less cool color.

This Archon color temp is like Inon 550W , nice and warm. See the test photo. That is single light and from approx 70cm, used to replace strobe.


Later guys..........

SPP

"At this 100 watt power level , no dive light manufacturer/s can achieve enough sales to commit to a custom LED array design, so you will be using what is available in the market and not a custom one."

True for a mod excercise...not necessarily for production. Using an array is not really the answer anyway for best performance.

I am using my own custom design PCB quad XML's (cherry-picked for chromaticity) in my current production SEASTAR LED 4000's...most efficient 4000 lumen light currently available (I've done the tests compared with Keldan Lunas). Have a look at my website ...you will see the HDVSEATEK logo on the PCB. The array I used in my Archon mod was not as efficient as the PCB/XML's in my LED 4000...but not bad "for of the shelf". Much better than original Archon Chinese array.

As I said my mod was for fun...I have a much better/safer 9000 lumen light based on CREE XML's of my own design/manufacture about to be released.

OK HDV, keep us posted yah..............nice !!!! Thank u.
.

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[Davide DB]

I would pay extra US$100 dollars for :
- Safety vent valve. In my opinion any dive lights with Lit-Ion battery power of 5000mA or more, MUST HAVE SAFETY VENT VALVE. In fact any torch which has the potential power to hurt us when flooded and battery gassing off bla bla bla, MUST HAVE SAFETY VENT VALVE.
- Magnetic type rotational switch with locking mechanism. They can make the barrel 3 cm longer to house the switch assy, place the rotator outside the barrel. Many land version torch has this kind of magnetic rotational switch and some dive lights too.
.

Really good explanation. So as usual there's no free meal
Spin to on is probably the most primitive design. I've never seen it in a modern dive light. Furthermore I think is a pita turning on and off these lights if used on camera arms.

I know, HDVdiver is a purist and he will not approve... but despite these flaws I would grab one if only I could find it here in Europe at 700 USD

Regarding the parallel/series design is the most common problem on Halcyon and similar lights battery packs. Fortunately they are NImh and not Li ion.

Edit

Also my battery pack has a similar design.

http://imgur.com/OAtxW

They give you some silicone covers for transport:

http://imgur.com/DC78n

Bye

Edited by Davide DB, 28 September 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[SPP]

He he he, at this size of light head, to spin-to-ON indeed a nightmare when light on video system and with arms and.........we right hander guys, spinning light head from behind , sometime people DO forget the spinning action is the other way round......ha ha ha.

For those who knows electric enough, one can take pre-caution, this battery pack is OK. I use plastic tupperware to keep spare battery during storage and transport. Actually some divers even have explosion proof charging box for big batteries

http://www.rebreathe...rths-house.html

I would make such a box if I have lots of lights like her and put an automatic halon ( its replacement ) fire extinguisher with 65C blow off glass valve. However since I am in the tropics need to vent those box a bit with airflow, to cool things down but it must have vent damper to shut airflow when fire fighting unit in action. Better yet, place an ampere and voltage meter to 3 digits resolution in between charging leads to battery to see if over time the charger drift its value.
Use a timer module for the 220V supply and the use N/O relay for the charging leads at the same time, set to +1 hour of max charging time, so we can sleep ha ha ha.

I think it is not the battery per se being dangerous, it could have been the charger, since Lit-Ion is not all that complicated to charge unlike AGM or sealed lead acid batteries with 3 charging stages. I never run a test on this Archon charger but I do run test on my camera's 3rd party charger. I will make sure a 3.7V cell gets no more than 4.200 volt, as per Panasonic guideline.
I would prefer 4.175V is possible and gets to 80% charge or so, its enough. Lit-ion has no memory effect or plates that grow "cakes" when charging not done a 100%, so we do not need to "equalize" anything. Just keep it at 80%ish state of charge as max charge, it could give some extra safety level and peace of mind, a bit longer overall life cycle too.

Even non rechargeable battery will pop off its safety rupture vent valve, when it needs to.
See photo. This is manganese dioxide type Lithium http://www.batteryci...um-battery-2998

Series connection for Lit-Ion is OK for use/discharge, charging best be isolated and individual.
Parallel as in real hard wired parallel is not so good, be it in use/discharge or during charging.
This is a good read. Pg 29 & 30.
http://industrial.pa.../ACI4000PE5.pdf


Later Davide..

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[HDVdiver]

He he he, at this size of light head, to spin-to-ON indeed a nightmare when light on video system and with arms and.........we right hander guys, spinning light head from behind , sometime people DO forget the spinning action is the other way round......ha ha ha.

For those who knows electric enough, one can take pre-caution, this battery pack is OK. I use plastic tupperware to keep spare battery during storage and transport. Actually some divers even have explosion proof charging box for big batteries

Ha ha...yes if you turn the wrong way you soon find out...

Charging at home (in the bomb shelter!) is one thing. My concern is when travelling. Not just for this light/battery but Lithium batteries in general. You are correct...so much depends on the Li charger since the charging of Lithium batteries is more critical than for NiMH. I travel a lot in Asia where the power supply is unreliable...not just blackouts, but voltage stability and spikes. This has damaged more than one charger for me. The worry is if the Li charger is damaged and can no longer regulate/balance the batteries correctly during charging. Yes a good protection circuit on the battery is vital (and using quality made cells).

The whole issue of batteries and charging is a bit of a Black Art. I can understand why the airlines are so paranoid about Lithium batteries.

[Davide DB]

I update this thread on monster light with this light and video I come across lately:


[vimeohd]53347589[/vimeohd]

One of the few cave diving video that not bored me

The lights used are these Scubamafia "the beast", a 300W Led lighthead.

http://www.scubamafi...ight-p-354.html

They do not report lumen specs but they wrote that led is rated from the manufacturer 100 lm/W.

I don't know how much real lumens they are but video shows an amazing throughput

[SPP]

Dang ! What a power n price. Why no safety vent valve ? I thought Archon was mad, this brand is tripple MAD because of tripple the battery power it has hahaha. I think 26,000 lumens is ballpark for it at 300W power. Too bad they did not show what LED array is used.

Above 300 watt/hr ( ballpark ) battery I think we can not bring in on the airline.
http://www.bobatkins...strictions.html

I don't know the global rule but I wanted to buy for a friend a scooter from USA which the battery pack can not be shipped to OUTSIDE USA regardless of mode of transport, while it is only 300 Watt/hr. The scooter maker trying to get approval though and possible by end of year is allowable for export.......I sure hope so.

Give it a year if price comes down to US$2,500 I will buy one for collection this BEAST. Nice.

Davide, I found this for safety vent valve.
http://shop.dev-pein...ruckventil.html

Thanks for the link, that is one super cool video and reflects well for Aquatica too.......BRAVO for the Divers and Aquatica !!!
.

[Steve Douglas]

Davide,
If price is a huge issue, take a look at the Keldan 4 lights. I was very impressed with them and they have the same build quality of the Keldan 8's. Don't go overboard with Lumens concerns as I truly think shooters can be too consumed by how many lumens a light may have. When doing medium and closeup work, you have to turn down the power anyway or blow out your image.
steve