Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Sony Rx100 Housing Choice

rx100 housing

  • Please log in to reply
62 replies to this topic

#1 Interceptor121

Interceptor121

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 735 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Weybridge, UK

Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:38 AM

My thoughts on the subject
http://wp.me/p2QoIB-1E

Check my video, pictures and blog

YouTube Channel

Flickr Sets

Blog


#2 SPP

SPP

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

121,

Nice thoughts on that blog.

You are not the only person who accidentally press north-west-south-east buttons while spinning a RecSea rear dial/buttons combo.
On S100 it will work, but on RX100 or any Sony using that kind of rear dial........hhmmm....... Do you know why ?

It is because S100 rear dial, the spinning part is only a few millimeters of the total diameter of the dial itself. So that spinning part does not sink in, it can only rotate and being on the most outside diameter of the dial, it acts as a sort of buffer for RecSea gimbal for Canon S100's rear dial. Sort of a stopper so to speak. This will make accidental PUSH-TO-ON on S100 four buttons less an occurrence, if any at all. That dial is a stand alone mechanism in a S100, not combo the way RX100 rear dial is.

S100 is a 3 mechanism separated. Center button = PUSH. Middle dial diameter = bogus cover for 4 push buttons, outside diameter = spinner
RX100 is a 2 mechanism, 1 being combo. Center button = PUSH. Spinner is also a dial and a cover for 4 push buttons, this is the combo.

Notice on an S100 , the north-west-south-east buttons where it is covered by the rather middle part of the dial, those can sink-in when button..........( label actually ) is pushed. See the label ( what I mean by label is the label of the function ) of S100, it is on the dial because that part does not spin, so label can be on dial. See label of RX100, it is on camera body, because RX100 spinning dial is the whole dial ( only minus the middle button ). If Sony place the label on the dial, it will spin and change positions he he he. I never touched an S100 but from the photo at BackScatter and its label position, its obvious.


Posted Image

Posted Image

RECSEA S100 BELOW

Posted Image

RECSEA RX100 BELOW

Posted Image

Where is the design logic for RecSea S100 & RX100 rear dial gimbal, that round thingy on the door internal ?
Copy and paste, brick for brick same gimbal for two different mechanism of S100 and RX100 ............this is lazy engineering in my book.




THE GIMBAL FOR REAR DIAL WHICH MAKES NAUTICAM RX100 WORKS LIKE MAGIC

Posted Image

So RecSea does not want to waste money and resources, they assumed their S100 kind of dial can be used on RX100...........sure, with accidental ON-OFF of other functions like what you and other people are experiencing ha ha ha.

That RecSea for RX100 rear dial is number 1 mistake the engineering team made. The mistake is, they do not want to work harder and learn to realize that mechanical sensitivity and function of Sony RX100 rear dial for underwater use which has to be "brokered' by a mechanical medium ( that RecSea spinning dial and its gimbal being the broker ) is not always possible , by design to be imitated simply that copy & paste way brick ( housing dial ) for brick ( RX100 dial ). The idea is cool though in my opinion, but that RecSea system looses its sensitivity because no way they can avoid NOT using springs. If there is no sea water pressure, that design will probably will suit RX100. Once the need for sea water pressure compensation comes into play, the value of the spring counter tension they used "damaged" the feel of the RX100 rear dial and that is why you get that accidental PUSH-TO-ON scenario. We loose sense of touch underwater even without gloves, with gloves our fingers becomes a dumber sensor. Camera controls like RX100 uses for rear spinning dial , is a "feel" kind of dials, it is more complicated than half shutter which uses only variable tension/pressure and only 1 directional travel. RX100 half shutter is approx 75 grams. The full press shutter is approx 200 grams. That RX100 rear dial work on lesser pressure than that and has spin and push action, which complicated things more. Once you have 1 switch assy, controlling 2 motions ( push and spin ) , 4 quadrants and able to spin 360 degrees and all in the size of our thumb print, its a nightmare to mimic that brick for brick for UW housing. Hence Nauticam separate the spinning action away from the 4 buttons, all the better because any spinning dial if not FAT, should be located at side of housing so that one can spin it easy. How to spin a thin dial if it is on a flat surface ( back door of housing = flat ) while in water ?

RecSea made that rear dial bigger for comfort of user, at the same time mechanical rules applies, the bigger the dial is, the more crow bar effect for every slight accidental push of that dial at furthest away circumference of that dial.....so what they do ?.... increase spring tension and the feeling our fingers get from the RX100 rear dial response is lost even more. One way to make LESS mistake when spinning a dial like RecSea is, use your nail like scratching off an air bubble on a paint job, but our thumb is not very good at doing that compared to our index finger. I wish I can rip open RecSea rear dial assembly, I want to know how they they lay out the 4 buttons and the middle rotating shaft. I do not like a spinning dial with middle button, which means in most cases it is a solid shaft in a hollow shaft lay out. More o-rings to worry about leak because the work load is both push and spinning for the solid shaft outer diameter surface. Spinning 90 degrees like trigger lever is one thing, spinning 360 degrees is making an o-ring a duty of shaft seal like in a pump, I don't like it.

The bottom line is, no money wasted in re-engineering that rear dial for RecSea RX100, simply use one from RecSea S100. ha ha ha, what a waste of their engineering team mind/brain.



You forgot to add something..................

Recsea uses friction dial for RX100 top right MODE dial, the friction dial is o-ring based for friction correct ? Its attack angle is from the top.
Nauticam uses toothed rubber edged plastic gear and it is mated to create friction with angle of attack from the side of that RX100 main dial, which has checkered edge....for friction.

The Nauticam approach gives more friction while not erasing that dial's label in the long run. The friction part I like since I can spin fast and not slip. Recsea version will slip if you spin fast and a friend of mine has one and it does slip once in a while, even slow spinning.

One question please.
Any push to contact friction dial like what RecSea uses for RX100 top MODE dial, do we need to lift it up when we insert the camera to the housing ?
I mean, such mechanical approach RecSea decided on, must have some tension/pressure towards that MODE dial and most likely it uses spring and will be at least -1mm down from camera's top surface level when there is no camera in the housing. Unless owner install camera into housing slide upwards way ( assuming it is possible ) and not straight-in like we normally would, any control/s perpendicular to the direction of inserting a camera into the housing, may get in the way.


I wished Nauticam made a bigger dial for that spinning lens thingy and use self-tensioning top/MODE dial mechanism like their NEX7, super awesome.
I will pay extra if they made those. Add their 2 stage D800 trigger lever for shutter , have it on RX100 he he he, I will pay some more.

The only negative thing on the MODE dial mechanism Nauticam uses is, when one get an RX100 camera with -0.5 to -1mm tolerance ( that dial being more towards the front of the camera ), that MODE dial may slip and one need to request a +0.5mm or +1mm bigger diameter gear. On a RecSea, if spring is indeed used, should be able to absorb the camera body tolerance.

This is why I love the Nauticam NEX7 self tensioning 2 top dials mechanism with approx 3mm or so allowable play. Same as NA-RX100, angle of attack from the side of the dial, rubber edged gears, soft spring as play allowance, but contact is ALWAYS great.



BELOW IS WHAT I CALL BEST TOP DIAL MECHANISM - NAUTICAM SELF-TENSIONING ONES ON THE NEX7

Posted Image


.
.
Thanks for the thoughts 121, I am just adding the mechanical reasoning for you...he he he.

.

Edited by SPP, 12 November 2012 - 04:43 PM.


#3 Interceptor121

Interceptor121

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 735 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Weybridge, UK

Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:18 PM

Your post is longer than my blog! To be honest there are still weaknesses of the nauticam housing such as the front ring is a pain and sometimes "misses" however at the end of the day you need to settle for what is best for you
You should have put the comment on the blog itself!!!
Besides the issue with recsea rear button did occur on my S95 so I would not say it was a working beauty from what you say with the RX100 it will be worse I can believe that is true looking at the mechanism

Edited by Interceptor121, 12 November 2012 - 11:26 PM.

Check my video, pictures and blog

YouTube Channel

Flickr Sets

Blog


#4 SPP

SPP

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:47 AM

He he he my Apology dear Sir for my post being longer than your blog. When I explain product details to my Bosses , that is how I do my write up, they want to see pictures & reasoning showing why I would choose equipment A over B, while be A cost extra 1 million Euro.

Yes, Sony RX100 spinning lens switch is not a real mechanical gearing like common lens focus mechanism, its a one-click-one-movement electronically and on the camera itself it is lagging already. It is a software based switch, hence slow operation. First activation turns ON the specific chosen function of that lens spinning switch , next movement is either left right or UP/DOWN value command. A 3 seconds delay becomes OFF state. The typical 1 second delay the switch is lagging and without real mechanical. CLICK being offered to indicate command or activation, that is one lousy switch system to begin with but since it is multi-function, I can live with that. However, I can not blame Sony for not using mechanical click sensation on that spinning lens dial, in a zoom scenario for MOVIE if a user uses that lens spinner as ZOOM function or as DE-FOCUS, any mechanical noise will be recorded. Its a catch 22 situation.

Unless your RX100 is rather out of tolerance ( not likely in this kind of magnitude ), its hard for the Nauticam lens rotating mechanism being so big and has 360 degrees contact and rubber toothed with so much friction surface area, to actually get a real mechanical missed of command. What function do you use on that lens dial ? You may experience mechanical to software slow response and thought it was a slipping/misses. The ratio of hand controlled external spinning dial is ,90 degrees of external dial producing a spin on the Nauticam internal lens dial approx 3 tooth advance. The Sony RX100 itself need that much spinning of the lens dial to trigger the 1st ON state command........BUT.... there is a big BUT and you can verify using marker pen and set for ISO or SHUTTER .............the slower one spin an RX100 lens dial, the more angle it needs to translate that command after in an ON state, but also not always the case, it has its own mind ha ha ha. That is software glitch you perceived as misses or slipping. So it is not equal to say per 10 degrees is 1 command, do it VERY slow and you need 20 degrees to achieve that, sometimes more, sometimes less.

For us who think this is a pure mechanical switch, we are in trouble because it does not have repeatability like a click-click aperture switch on a lens.
Try it for yourself, get a white marker and you will agree with me. Since you like to experiment, this one worth trying.

I set that spinning lens switch for manual focus only, because thumb is better for other controls and rear of camera controls are faster to access than that front lens spinner if in case I set lens spinner to other function other than focus. However focus peaking with camera movement front n back is faster hehehe, because of that inherent glitch in the RX100 lens rotation thingy.

So me not too upset over than Nauticam negative point for front lens spinner, because the spinner on the camera itself is not precise.

Well, I am sad to hear RecSea S95 rear dial has same accidental ON too. Since it has same rear dial as S100, so S100 in RecSea will have same issue.
I am a mechanical freak, I observe all these things because I am a lousy UW imaging guy ha ha ha. So I get my enjoyment decoding how these housings works. The bottom line I think is, RecSea need to hire top mechanical engineers and pick one from the best schools and those ranking 1-3 in their category.
I think Alex T wrote that on Nauticam hiring top minds fresh from school.

Experience making housings even if one goes back 2 decades or more, will never have any much improvement if the same 'old" minds are employed. We need new ideas from new young fresh minds. I have lots of engineers working with me as my team, some are brilliant text book wise some are real brilliant in the field. The brilliant text book wise are dummies when it comes to solving problems in the field, because they are not creative nor innovative and they are NOT willing to learn that "outside elements" will effect their text book perfect design as such, it wont be reliable in the field.

You know what I like about you 121 ?
You are that typical perfectionist British gentlemen, not so cozy friendly ( ha ha ha ) but you are actually a very nice guy who wants to share what you know to the public, that is a good person in my book.

.

#5 Alex_Mustard

Alex_Mustard

    The Doctor

  • Super Mod
  • 8375 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peterborough

Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:30 AM

I've only tried the Nauticam housing - but I liked the controls, the push buttons have a real quality feel to them. Alex

Alexander Mustard - www.amustard.com - www.magic-filters.com
Nikon D4 (Subal housing). Nikon D7100 (Subal housing). Olympus EPL-5 (Nauticam housing).


#6 Interceptor121

Interceptor121

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 735 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Weybridge, UK

Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:34 AM

Ha ha, I am not British!

Check my video, pictures and blog

YouTube Channel

Flickr Sets

Blog


#7 albatross911

albatross911

    Clownfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 20 posts

Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:34 PM

Indeed I used the front dial for manual focus only, and when I really need to manual focus set it to closest focus range and move camera with focus peaking to get the focus point on my intended target. I only thought of this technique nearing the end of my trip so did not practice it much.

Another way to have better control on focus is to use tracking focus which by default is the center button. Then I can tell the camera where to keep in focus. Using manual focus in video is not that practical overall, as the front dial's "turn to effect" ratio as SPP has explained is too slow. Making A&S changes in manual with the rear dial and down button is easy and effective though.

#8 Interceptor121

Interceptor121

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 735 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Weybridge, UK

Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:24 PM

Albatross911 on a close range situation the tracking focus can work I tested it myself
For wide angle as per blog start with tracking or auto and then switch to manual to artificially set the AF lock seems to work

Check my video, pictures and blog

YouTube Channel

Flickr Sets

Blog


#9 SPP

SPP

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:50 AM

Ha ha, I am not British!


ooops my bad....he he he.

#10 Jensm

Jensm

    Starfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:18 AM

My thoughts on the subject
http://wp.me/p2QoIB-1E


Hi

Thanks for the post, very informative. As for the Patima option, you state that it's only 7,5% cheaper than Nauticam, but here in Europe it's different with Patima being 35% below Nauticam, making it a relevant option. Nauticam was too pricey for me, and Ikelite seems to flimsy, so I ordered the Patima, but didn't receive it yet.


Housing Price Percentage cheaper than next option
Recsea 999 0.00%
Nauticam 859 14.01%
Patima 559 34.92%
Ikelite 359 35.78%

Jens

Edited by Jensm, 14 November 2012 - 11:20 AM.


#11 oskar

oskar

    Eagle Ray

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 334 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Stockholm

Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:40 PM

It will be interesting how well the patima housing works with wet-lenses and how well the controll works, keep us posted!

Where did you buy it from?

Cheers
/O

Hi

Thanks for the post, very informative. As for the Patima option, you state that it's only 7,5% cheaper than Nauticam, but here in Europe it's different with Patima being 35% below Nauticam, making it a relevant option. Nauticam was too pricey for me, and Ikelite seems to flimsy, so I ordered the Patima, but didn't receive it yet.


Housing Price Percentage cheaper than next option
Recsea 999 0.00%
Nauticam 859 14.01%
Patima 559 34.92%
Ikelite 359 35.78%

Jens



#12 Interceptor121

Interceptor121

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 735 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Weybridge, UK

Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:12 PM

Hi

Thanks for the post, very informative. As for the Patima option, you state that it's only 7,5% cheaper than Nauticam, but here in Europe it's different with Patima being 35% below Nauticam, making it a relevant option. Nauticam was too pricey for me, and Ikelite seems to flimsy, so I ordered the Patima, but didn't receive it yet.


Housing Price Percentage cheaper than next option
Recsea 999 0.00%
Nauticam 859 14.01%
Patima 559 34.92%
Ikelite 359 35.78%

Jens

Those differences depend on the importer
I base my pricing on Uk retail however if I had to look at where the housing is actually made patima is $699 and nauticam $950 recsea $1149
With nauticam being the reference patima is 27% less recsea is 20% more and ikelite is 62% less

The implementation of the front ring is poor as you need to put your hand over the housing itself to reach the lever and I really don't like the closing latch. The buttons on the back and the dial look really crowded
I hope your purchase works to your satisfaction as I can see the housing from the pictures it does look at least essential and that is where the price difference is as there are plenty of design shortcuts
Maybe you can let is know how It actually works once you have it. With that design of controls for me it would be less of an option of ikelite in cold water with gloves

#13 SPP

SPP

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:05 PM

If budget is a concern, I will choose Patima over Ike for that small difference of price in Jen's country .

The Patima internals shown here :
http://www.fun-in.co...product_id=1470

This Patima will eat into Ike sales so it seems. Euro 150 more for Patima over Ike, that is so little and Patima is not plastic. That alone worth more than the difference.

Jen , you should test these when you get the Patima :
- Lens Control Ring slip
- Rear control spinning dial slip

As for rear crowded controls of Patima is 99% like Ike, it is a given for the price they are at. Price reduction must come with some penalty.
If Jen thumb not too fat, it should be OK hehehe. But Jen if diving cold water.......his glove will be thick and that may effect some.

Agree with 121 on the rather weird location of the lens Control Ring on Patima, but that is the same as Ike anyway.
If Patima beefed up the ON-OFF button spring, perhaps its quite OK , as I see potential accidental ON-OFF button being pressed when one trying to operate that lens Control Ring at housing top if one uses the right hand.

Do keep us informed Jen, of your new toy.
If Patima is nice for its control operations, I may get one myself , because I have 2 RX100 camera and I can let my daughter use the Patima.
.

#14 SPP

SPP

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

Damn..............

How could I miss this video.
Only now I can see Ike is so fat/thick and big and RecSea is a bit smaller than Nauticam.



.

#15 albatross911

albatross911

    Clownfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 20 posts

Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

In general I think to use a second hand controlling a front ring around the lens is not practical underwater. On a tray system with either 1 or 2 arms your second hand need to move quite far (either around the arm or underneath?) to get to the front ring to change settings then back to the handle before the shot for stability. Nauticam's little "knob" for the front dial make it easy as I can use my trigger index finger to move over to change and back to the trigger quickly.

#16 SPP

SPP

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:06 AM

Hi 911,

I actually dont like tray handle on camera right side.
I do have 2 handles ( Nauticam tray ) but only to hold lights and I space it out so that my hand can go in between the camera body right side and the handle.
The middle ball attachment on housing top is reserved for GoPro or DP4.

RX100 body is design as compact, so its not as nice as DSLR to operate 100% UW if there is a handle on the right side and create the extra distance.
I agree with you, that my index finger can operate that front lens ring dial on the Nauticam with ease because it is placed as such it is a 1 finger operation scratching-off-paint-style without releasing my grip on camera housing right side. Totally unlike the requirement of 2 fingers, thumb and index finger operation of Patima or Ike for lens control ring/dial.

I also doubt I can reach RecSea big lens control dial if my hand palm is at camera's right side. I am pleased with Nauticam RX100 ergonomic, however I am thinking to modify the shutter release, by hopefully able to add some sort of rubber washer or extra spring to create 1 tiny bit of resistance before the actual SHUTTER release. I want a NA-D800 feel on the shutter he he he or at least NA-NEX7 feel.
.

Edited by SPP, 15 November 2012 - 05:06 AM.


#17 albatross911

albatross911

    Clownfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 20 posts

Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

Actually I also don't have arm on the right side, so left hand on the arm and right hand on the housing. So for sure the front lens dial on the Recsea is not efficient. I hope Sony will have a firmware update to allow tweaking the sensitivity of the front dial so manual focus is more useful. Or maybe quick adjustment in normal view and fine adjustment in zoomed view?

#18 lisperit

lisperit

    Starfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:28 AM

About the right arm:
It is possible to use all the Nauticam controls if the arm or the handle is in contact with the right side of the housing (not for small hands).
I made a custom tray using a scrap of 3mm Dibond (doubled to have 6mm thickness) : a perfect material for underwater DYY.

Attached Images

  • Nauticam1.jpg


#19 Jensm

Jensm

    Starfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:07 AM

It will be interesting how well the patima housing works with wet-lenses and how well the controll works, keep us posted!

Where did you buy it from?

Cheers
/O


Hi

Got it from here: http://www.uw-fotopa...kt-Kameras/Sony

/Jens

#20 SPP

SPP

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:03 AM

About the right arm:
It is possible to use all the Nauticam controls if the arm or the handle is in contact with the right side of the housing (not for small hands).
I made a custom tray using a scrap of 3mm Dibond (doubled to have 6mm thickness) : a perfect material for underwater DYY.


Lis,
Nauticam tray is adjustable camera position wise on tray, handle extension wise on tray. I can make it as close as your handle set up, no problem.
Still, my fingers are short hehehe and fat. So me prefer nothing in between my hand towards NA-RX100 right side body.

I also can not use locline kind of flexible arm, to soft for me as I am a rough user and one of my video light is -1kg underwater. I jump into the water from 2 meters high, I don't care. I treat my NA-RX100 like a GoPro. I did a torture test the other day, without lights on it, I throw it hard into my pool till it bounce a bit and sank hahahah. Its good, no issue. I am only afraid the G force will damage the RX100 pop-out lens assy. I already damaged 1 RX100 camera this way. Dropped from a mere 1 meter on a bus floor ( accidental ), later the pop-out lens sometimes will pop-out sometime it won't. Sent for repair and took 45+ days Dang !!!! So I bought another RX100 and now I got 2 units, one being back up and my daughter love to use it over her Olympus TG-1 ( submersible ). That is why I am kind of keen on Patima too, for my daughter or snorkling works or B scuba camera when needed.

You left side flexible arm, that is not LocLine, is that stiffer than Locline ?
Thanks
.