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Sony FS100 white balance at depth

Sony FS100 Amphibico Genesis White Balance

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#61 SimonSpear

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:11 AM

Simon, I've been following this string with interest, I also just got the FS100 and am having WB issues as well.
I was just at the Galapagos and didn't have much luck with MWB, it seemed to add to much red. The water wasn't the nice blue that you get at Socorro but more green to brownish at the thermocline.
I see all of your test pics. and am wondering what you were using for your WB card? White? Gray? The Sun? The Amphibico slate if so which side? Sand?
It made a big difference with my old Z1.

Thanks,

Monte


Hi Monte

Are you getting the saturated green colour issues like others have posted in this thread? The water at San Benedicto was certainly a little green, but I didn't get those issues unless I was using the preset K temperature settings.

I mainly used the palm of my hand to WB, but I did occasionally use the sun/water surface and sand when there was some around as I found that I sometimes needed to try different methods to get the best result.

In general I found that it wasn't good to push the WB too much. By that I mean if I had a good WB on WB-A at say 15m there was no point loosing that by trying to WB at 25m. Instead I'd try to WB at 25m on WB-B and if it didn't work I'd just revert back to WB-A. I found getting good results on WB below 15m to be problematic. There is a certain knack to looking at a viewfinder/lcd screen/monitor underwater and knowing if the WB is working or not. What I found with the FS100 was that if it looked too red underwater then it would almost certainly look bad once I reviewed the footage.

I also should add that the flatter the Picture Profile the better. I ended up shooting with the PP OFF, but I tried out most of them. PP1 and PP2 worked ok, but by the time you get up to PP5 (which I normally use topside) and PP6 it wasn't looking great at all. I also tried G-LOG and it worked ok, but not enough of a difference maybe to warrant the extra colour correction in post especially as there could be issues working with the footage.

I guess I'd sumarise this camera as good at the surface and good for using with lights. I think there is a strong chance that for the ambient available light shooting that I normally prefer that I'll never be fully satisfied with the results.

Cheers, Simon

Edited by SimonSpear, 05 February 2013 - 06:13 AM.


#62 SimonSpear

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:22 AM

Should just add that I'd really appreciate input from anyone who has been trying to colour correct in post to see what issues they have encountered!

Cheers, Simon

#63 jonny shaw

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:46 PM

Can you squeeze a Blackmagic Hyper Deck shuffle into the housing.... (prob not) to avoid the AVCHD... what happened to Amphibicos external housing for a Samurai?

BTW, was Rebecca R on your trip, I'm sure she was over at the same time?

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#64 SimonSpear

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:19 AM

Nope Rebecca wasn't on our boat, although there are 4 that run Socorro trips so maybe she was on one of the others? Shame it would have been nice to meet up with aother Wetpixeler!

No word on the Ninja2 housing from Ampbibico. I think I remember hearing that there were issues with the Ninja2 and Sony's lanc controls. Something like that. Let's hope they get resoloved!

Interestingly I was just reviewing some Cocos footage shot on a 7D which had very similar conditions to Socorro with slightly greener water and 5m less vis. I think the summary I gave is pretty accurate. The 7D reproduces colours so much better underwater, but the FS100 is a huge leap in resolution and general image quality and that was using that crappy 16mm lens. Once I get the new E mount f4 10-18 underwater I think I'll see even better results and it may even give better colour reproduction too. I'll definitely test it out once I get my housing back (did I mention that I managed to break it?). I was going to do a full review of the Amphibico housing but I'm off to Fiji next month so I think I'll wait until after that now. So far it has been very nice to film with, although sharks seem to like it a little too much!!

Cheers, Simon

#65 thani

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:58 AM

No word on the Ninja2 housing from Ampbibico. I think I remember hearing that there were issues with the Ninja2 and Sony's lanc controls. Something like that. Let's hope they get resoloved!


Hi Simon,

That was Ninja1 which had a LANC input. The Ninja2 has no LANC input and it does work nicely with both the fs100 and the fs700. It uses the HDMI trigger to start and stop recording from the camera.

Thanks for the detail update. I do share the disappointment with you re. the fs100 performance at depths below 25m. I was planning to buy the Amphibico housing but after our marathon trail with Sultan I was discouraged and I was waiting for the good news from you.

Sultan has tried the new Sony 10-18 emount lens. I will try to post a clip tonight taking with it.

Regards,
Thani

Edited by thani, 07 February 2013 - 07:01 AM.

Best Regards,
Thani

#66 SimonSpear

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:07 AM

Hi Simon,

That was Ninja1 which had a LANC input. The Ninja2 has no LANC input and it does work nicely with both the fs100 and the fs700. It uses the HDMI trigger to start and stop recording from the camera.

Thanks for the detail update. I do share the disappointment with you re. the fs100 performance at depths below 25m. I was planning to buy the Amphibico housing but after our marathon trail with Sultan I was discouraged and I was waiting for the good news from you.

Sultan has tried the new Sony 10-18 emount lens. I will try to post a clip tonight taking with it.

Regards,
Thani


I wonder why the Housing has not made an appearance yet then hmmmmm.

I think you've probably made the right move Thani - if I had an EX1 I doubt I would upgrade to the FS100 for underwater use, unless the compactness was essential. One of the major benefits that I've not mentioned is that I was able to get the camera, housing and all lenses/ports into my hand luggage without having to check a single item into the hold. That is a huge benefit to me as I travel so much.

What thoughts did Sultan have after using the 10-18?

Cheers, Simon

#67 thani

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:39 AM

What thoughts did Sultan have after using the 10-18?
Cheers, Simon


Sultan likes the wide angle lens because it solves the bad visibility challenge we always have here. it allows him to get closer to large structures. But his beloved lens is the Zeiss 24 1.8.

Re the ex1/fathom, I was hopping withe fs100 setup to go light and have the lens choice. Lets hope there would be a solution for this amazing topside camera.

I will be heading home and post a wide angle clip as promised.

Regards,
Thani
Best Regards,
Thani

#68 SimonSpear

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:07 PM

I'm also thinking about experimenting with the Zeiss 24mm 1.8. It would give a 35mm equiv that wouldn't be a million miles away from what you'd get on a Sony Z1/5/V1/EX1 and Canon XF100/300. It should work very nice in clear water.

Cheers, Simon

#69 mmccue

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:49 PM

It sounds like Amphibico is up in the air as to whether they'll release a housing for the Ninja2 or not. I was refered to Dive and See who does have a housing availabale currently.

http://www.diveandse...ater-monitors/1

I have the Ninja 2 deck already, and I'll be ordering the housing soon. Hopefully using the better codec will help resolve these issues.

Mike

#70 thani

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:35 PM

What thoughts did Sultan have after using the 10-18?

Cheers, Simon


Hi Simon,

I updated Sultan's project with this wide angel lens clip. These shots were in shallow water max 30 feet. The visibility was really bad below that. The lens was fixed at 10mm wide and the camea was in auto-focus, auto-iris mode. Here is the link:
http://wetpixel.com/...51
Best Regards,
Thani

#71 thani

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:51 AM

You really can't push the WB on this camera. When you do, especially if you are at a high db/ISO the image just falls apart (see image 4 & 5).

Image 4 - DEPTH 30M, URPRO BLUE WATER FILTER, MWB, 15bd GAIN

Posted Image

Image 5 - DEPTH 30M, URPRO BLUE WATER FILTER, MWB, 18bd GAIN

Posted Image


Hi Simon,

Did You think the wide angel is sharp enough?

My biggest worry is not WB now, it is what you have noticed in images 4 & 5. I have seen the same horrible HALO like rings of pixelations/noise in Sultan's clips.

This happens when the camera is aimed at the vast blue/green water even when it focuses correctly at a small fish/subject in the middle or the side of the frame. Sometimes it is a multiple animated rings. May be
it is due to gain which we were limiting to 18db.

It is more obvious in the clips than the stills. We thought, initially, that something went wrong with the FS700 but we got the same with the FS100. Again, This happens only when you have large background of water in the scene.

I hope I am wrong. What do you think Simon?

Regards,
Thani

Edited by thani, 09 February 2013 - 06:31 AM.

Best Regards,
Thani

#72 peterbkk

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:04 AM

May be it is due to gain which we were limiting to 18db.

It is more obvious in the clips than the stills. We thought, initially, that something went wrong with the FS700 but we got the same with the FS100. Again, This happens only when you have large background of water in the scene.


It is exactly this reason that I switched from Sony to Canon about 2 years ago. There is something in the Sony firmware that does not work well underwater. It seems to have something to do with the color algorithm boosting the gain on the red channel when it thinks that there is not enough red (which, of course, there is not enough red underwater).

You could try presetting the WB to something like 7000 degrees, so the camera does not try to do something ugly.

Regarding the gain setting, unless it is really dark, I find that it is better to lock it at 0dB and, at most, push it to 6dB.

Regards
Peter

#73 thani

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:44 AM

Peter,

Allow me to differ here, not all Sony cameras suffer from such issue. My EX1 is really good underwater.
I was thinking it is the AVCHD codec but unfortunately I have found similar halo noise effect on the Ninja2 using ProRes HQ. I am not sure if WB setting has anything to do with it!

I agree on the db setting and it should be kept really at low values. But what surprises me that this camera does wonders in low light performance topside, doesn't it?

Again, I hope that more testing will prove me wrong :).

Regards,
Thani

Edited by thani, 09 February 2013 - 06:47 AM.

Best Regards,
Thani

#74 peterbkk

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:53 AM

Allow me to differ here, not all Sony cameras suffer from such issue. My EX1 is really good underwater.
I was thinking it is the AVCHD codec but unfortunately I have found similar halo noise effect on the Ninja2 using ProRes HQ. I am not sure if WB setting has anything to do with it!


You are right. The earlier Sony camcorders were good at WB underwater, maybe a little bit too green but that was always curable. Then, about 2009, Sony did something that messed up the WB algorithm for underwater use. I first saw it on the CX550. It seems that it is still a problem.

Regards
Peter

#75 SimonSpear

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:21 AM

It sounds like Amphibico is up in the air as to whether they'll release a housing for the Ninja2 or not. I was refered to Dive and See who does have a housing availabale currently.

http://www.diveandse...ater-monitors/1


Referred by Amphibico? If so I'd say that means it is highly doubtful.

It seems that it is still a problem.


That seems to be very true indeed!

#76 SimonSpear

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:44 AM

My biggest worry is not WB now, it is what you have noticed in images 4 & 5. I have seen the same horrible HALO like rings of pixelations/noise in Sultan's clips.

This happens when the camera is aimed at the vast blue/green water even when it focuses correctly at a small fish/subject in the middle or the side of the frame. Sometimes it is a multiple animated rings. May be it is due to gain which we were limiting to 18db.

It is more obvious in the clips than the stills. We thought, initially, that something went wrong with the FS700 but we got the same with the FS100. Again, This happens only when you have large background of water in the scene.

I hope I am wrong. What do you think Simon?

Regards,
Thani


You mean like these two?

Posted Image

Posted Image


They tend to appear when you have (A) increased the Gain above 0db, (B) tried to WB too deep and got a really bad result and (C used a filter. If I reverted back to the previous WB they disappeared and if I kept the Gain at 0db, didn't use a filter and didn't attempt to push the WB too much when deep then I didn't get them at all.

You only really see them when you have open water, but they are definitely still there with a background it is just that they are harder to see. Fortunately you can get rid of them when colour correcting by moving your midtones towards blue/green and reducing the gamma. If you have some sceenshots you can post it would be appreciated because if you are also seeing this then it is DEEPLY concerning as I genuinely thought it was something to do with the crappy 16mm pancake lens that I was using.

Edited by SimonSpear, 10 February 2013 - 11:45 AM.


#77 SimonSpear

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:58 AM

Well I managed to find a couple of days to edit something together shot with the FS100.  Due to the WB and other camera issues this is certainly the bluest underwater film I've ever made!  The surface shots and a couple of underwater shots are from the 7D after my housing melted down. 

 

I ended up throwing away probably around 90% of the footage shot on the FS100 due to quality issues.  This film is from what was salvageable and I certainly wouldn't be able to use it for anything more than showing on the web. 

 

Such a shame, Socorro was such a wonderful location.  I'd recommend you view in 1080p.

 


Edited by SimonSpear, 25 April 2013 - 04:00 AM.


#78 peterbkk

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:48 AM

 

Such a shame, Socorro was such a wonderful location.  I'd recommend you view in 1080p.

 

 

 

Well, the 10% you used was pretty good.  What an amazing place!



#79 thani

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:08 AM

Thanks Simon for sharing this nice footage :)
Best Regards,
Thani

#80 mmccue

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:22 PM

Looks like another option is on the way. If Simon is right and the issue in camera, or something between the camera and the lens, the superior codec might not solve anything. Has anyone been able to experiement with different lenses or external storage devices underwater? I have a Ninja 2, but haven't been able to get it in the water yet. Works great topside. My only dissapointment is that I'm unable to record different frame rates with it.

 

http://wetpixel.com/...-atomos-ninja-2

 

Mike


Edited by mmccue, 03 May 2013 - 05:40 PM.






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