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Sony FS100 white balance at depth

Sony FS100 Amphibico Genesis White Balance

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#101 Drew

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:43 PM

Simon, if you have the time, can you post the vectorscope and waveforms of the original AVCHD file for the clips with the green/cyan cast?  I'd like to see how much clipping there is in the G channel.  I think that cyan/green cast can be removed from the clips with a good grader like Resolve.


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#102 peterbkk

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 02:24 AM

Ah Simon,

 

I think that I see your problem.  What can you expect if you shoot video of a "shitter graveyard"  That's your problem: shitty subject matter...    :lol2:

 

Seriously, I recognise many of those problems from the Sony CX-550 underwater: excess green, red fuzzies, low DR.  My guess is that Sony have used the same colour engine.

 

I also recognise the nice Canon underwater colours.  My XF-100 does that.  Just gotta change the preset for each depth range and almost no post colour work is required.

 

I did have some success with the Sony CX-550 by doing a MWB on a brown subject (e.g. brown coral, rust) as that seemed to damp down the problems in the red channel.  But, at depth, I used to have to mix in some video light onto the subject to get it to even accept the MWB.  Fiddly and hit-and-miss.

 

If it is the colour engine, I wonder if you could reverse engineer some external gel filters that offset the camera's problems.

 

Or. eBay it and buy a Canon...

 

Regards

Peter



#103 SimonSpear

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:24 AM

Shitter Graveyard - hehe at least that put a smile on my face Peter!  :)  In addition to the 7D's I've also got a PMW200 which is working out amazingly well, so its not all Sony cameras that are affected.  It's not just the single chip ones either as the NX5 was also badly hit by all accounts, although very few people actually got one of those underwater.  So right now it looks like the whole NXCAM range is pretty much useless for underwater shooting.

 

The CX550 was a great compact camera, but quite frankly you'd expect a whole load more from the FS100.  I use the FS100 extensively topside and it is my favourtie camera which just makes this all the more frustrating.  Still you made a good choice with the XF100 - I've seen quite a bit of underwater footage from it and I was very impressed.

 

Drew I've attached a screen grab of FCP scopes which is what I think you are looking for.  I don't have Resolve installed at the moment, but I'm very happy to make some files available for you or anyone else to play around with if you think you can find a work around?  Whenever I've colour corrected in FCP I just get the halos appearing and the more red you add the worse they get.

 

Cheers, Simon

 

Attached Files



#104 thani

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 12:03 PM

Hi guys,

 

It is good to know that you are trying to get to the bottom of this issue. What I have said about this issue is summed up in the quote below.

So whomever is trying to recreate this promeblem must aim the camera at a subject/fish surrounded by huge column of water. Blue or green water does not matter. Low ambient light is required.When shooting close-ups, the camera behaves well.

I will be posting a clip - it shows better in video - that demonstrates the UGLY effect while shooting a fish in the vast ocean while on the same day, same site, the close-up shot has no issue.

 

Hi Simon,

Did You think the wide angel is sharp enough?

My biggest worry is not WB now, it is what you have noticed in images 4 & 5. I have seen the same horrible HALO like rings of pixelations/noise in Sultan's clips.

This happens when the camera is aimed at the vast blue/green water even when it focuses correctly at a small fish/subject in the middle or the side of the frame. Sometimes it is a multiple animated rings. May be
it is due to gain which we were limiting to 18db.

It is more obvious in the clips than the stills. We thought, initially, that something went wrong with the FS700 but we got the same with the FS100. Again, This happens only when you have large background of water in the scene.

I hope I am wrong. What do you think Simon?

Regards,
Thani

 

Here is the clip. Try watching it in HD. Youtube compresion has softened the effect:


Edited by thani, 27 May 2013 - 11:09 AM.

Best Regards,
Thani

#105 thani

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:43 AM

BTW, the shots in the above video were not color graded and were recorded directly on Ninja2 as Pro Res HQ

Edited by thani, 31 May 2013 - 06:48 AM.

Best Regards,
Thani

#106 peterbkk

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:15 AM

Wow, that halo is bad.
 
It doesn't look like it has anything to do with the subject, as the "halo" does not follow the subject but stays centred.  If there was no subject, just water, and the lens was manually focused somewhere between 1 meters and infinity, does the halo circle appear?
 
Could it be something to do with parallel light reflecting around between the lens and the sensor, created when the lens is focused out past 1 meters distance.  If so, that ought to be repeatable on land in similar lighting conditions.

Maybe a different lens / port might get rid of it?
 
Regards
Peter

Edited by peterbkk, 31 May 2013 - 07:16 AM.


#107 thani

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:47 AM

Peter,

For sure, It is really bad. And the subject may have nothing to do with it. The camera was trying to focus on the subject in bad visibility. And hence there is so much green water around and the camera is trying to compensate for such color cause of manual white balance, the camera goes crazy in the color rendition process. The lens used I think was the wonderful E-mount Zeiss 24mm 1.8.

As I said the camera does a good job in closeup shots.

This is some old footage that Sultan shot that and took me sometime to find. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the camera and can't do more trouble shooting. The guys here mentioned in this thread similar issue reported on land but I guess it is quite rare.

Regards,
Thani
Best Regards,
Thani

#108 SimonSpear

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:13 AM

Despite my previous statement that I'd given up on it I was playing around with the FS100 in the water again yesterday trying out yet more settings, but sadly with no improvement.

 

I was however setting the camera up for some timelapse in the evening, when I happened to switch it onto the WB settings that I'd been using earlier in the water.  Hey presto - I replicated the Halos topside.  Here is the screen grab (reduced to 1280x720 for viewing)

 

Halos.jpg

 

I should add that I've never had a response from the engineers at Sony Japan.  I'll have to chase that up!


Edited by SimonSpear, 20 June 2013 - 11:14 AM.


#109 Drew

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:21 AM

What lens are you using Simon?


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#110 r4e

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:02 PM

I am wondering... with the extreme Red amplication (as a result of the white balancing) would the sensor be more sensitive to interference by outside IR and/or internal heat conducted or reflected to the sensor? Perhaps the halos are low-level IR "noise" interfering with the red receptors? Could you try an IR filter?

 

P.S. Thumbs up, Simon, for your continued experimentations:-)


Edited by r4e, 20 June 2013 - 08:04 PM.

vimeo.com/r4e

http://www.cerella.fi for the Underwater Photographer and Videographer

 


#111 CheungyDiver

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:04 PM

I have more or less given up on the FS100/700. Not worth the hassle when even Sony does not seem to worry about the few customers concern about this.

As far as I could gather and with a big dollop of assumption is that this issue relates to all S35 single chip sensors.  It could even be the water particulate and clarity. There is similar investigation going on with other big sensor 4K cameras although nothing as serious as this FS series. Just magenta cast and noise at certain conditions and usually happens rarely. Only once in  clear blue waters in the Maldives using the Epic. 

 

The halo looks nasty with this FS 100. Looks like vignette as well. The lens could be a contributing factor.

 

cheers

David


Edited by CheungyDiver, 20 June 2013 - 10:54 PM.

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#112 SimonSpear

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:12 PM

I had the 16mm E lens on Drew.  It's a pretty crappy lens to be honest, but the phenomenon has been replicated on other lenses so it is not lens specific.  It 'may' be E mount Sony electronic lens specific as I've never had it on a manual lens, yet. 

 

I also filmed two UFO's that night, but that is an entirely different story for another forum and I really don't think the 'Halos' were anything to do with Alien interference!! :D

Cheers, Simon

 

 

 

 

 



#113 Drew

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:13 PM

Simon, like Richard, I just hypothesized that it's lens related because of how the center of the halo varies in size with different examples like the aperture blades.  Seems the sensor is seeing something that is circular.   The color rings are also radiating from this center circle, so  I would suggest you do this test again after the camera is cold to eliminate IR sources.  Also try it with an adapter like a Metabones to see if the issue occurs then.  If it's not IR, then there may be some sort of light leakage in the sensor area that the camera sees. Or the sensor it self is "wonky" for lack of a better word. :)

 

I do appreciate the efforts you are going through and all FS series camera people who have this issue should buy you a drink.  However, if the FS7/100 works for you topside and the only issue is halo rings in certain conditions, then I am reminded of what a pal of mine just told me:
"Hey, I shoot 20-30% underwater. Of that, the issue creeps up in unlit wide scenes mostly. The FS700 has the 240fps full HD, 4k RAW possible and great noise control. For the price, there's nothing out there that beats it, even with the noise floors!"


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#114 CheungyDiver

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:22 PM

Like to see those UFOs. 

 

Anyone seen UW  UFOs. I know its off topic but I have seen it once during the day. Many many years ago. Not submarine or anything. Could be big whale but not that speedy. Squid? No camera footage though.


Edited by CheungyDiver, 27 June 2013 - 12:48 AM.

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#115 Drew

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:25 PM

David, it could be just your old eyes playing tricks! :)


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#116 CheungyDiver

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:34 PM

Could be. But you can't miss two mini-bus sized blobs at 30m-35m in full sunshine going at like 60 miles per hour into the deep. Watched it for couple of minutes. Its goes up a little and then down again. No glow or anything just whatever was lit by the sunlight. Maybe its whales. They are sure fast swimming. 


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#117 peterbkk

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:21 PM

Could be. But you can't miss two mini-bus sized blobs at 30m-35m in full sunshine going at like 60 miles per hour into the deep. Watched it for couple of minutes. Its goes up a little and then down again. No glow or anything just whatever was lit by the sunlight. Maybe its whales. They are sure fast swimming.


The phenomena is called nitrogen narcosis...

#118 CheungyDiver

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:31 PM

Yeah right. Even ten years ago I was DM and had already clocked over 500 dives. Not narco for sure as my sonar and x-ray vision was working fine.


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#119 Drew

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:54 PM

Well, if you think you have x-ray vision, then you may have other issues that require looking @! :)


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#120 CheungyDiver

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:10 PM

Aliens live in the sea....LOL


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