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Sony FS100 white balance at depth

Sony FS100 Amphibico Genesis White Balance

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#141 CheungyDiver

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 11:54 PM

FS100 is getting more and more irrelevant for UW shooting since Sony does not even think its a problem or even bother even to look into. None of the Sony tech knows.

This thread has suddenly  got sidetracked into interior design and horticulture.....stay on topic please. Now what was it we were talking about? 


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#142 peterbkk

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:02 AM

.....stay on topic please.


Why would we want to do that? We never have in the past.

I had a whole lot more interior decoration ideas that I wanted to share...

#143 r4e

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:09 AM

I'll raise my offer for a Genesis housing: double the aluminium price plus replacement price for a very nice flower vase... Thanks Thani for the interior design tip...


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#144 thani

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:53 AM

I'll raise my offer for a Genesis housing: double the aluminium price plus replacement price for a very nice flower vase... Thanks Thani for the interior design tip...


You welcome :) I really appreciate what Amphibico created. It is quite a depart from the usual housing design.

If you guys recap, we have done plenty of testing. I can assure you that we have spent so much on fueling our boat that it would amount to more than the cost of the housing trying to fix the issue. And we tested both the fs100 and the fs700. But no luck :(

I have just read today on a relevant topic that somebody is finally happy with the Fs700. That's really good news :)

Finnally I have my FS700, with Amphibico Housing. And really happy, it works great.
 
But......what about Odyssey7Q? no housing?  :fool:
 
Nauticam has released the NA NINJA2.  It will be nice to see my Amphibico/Aquatica GENESIS FS700 Housing with the Nauticam NA NINJA2 because Amphibico and Aquatica customers don't have any way to improve their equipments capacities. :alien:
 
Sometimes I fill unprotected by Amphibico :pardon: .


http://wetpixel.com/...showtopic=50236

This brings hope to all, doesn't it :)
Best Regards,
Thani

#145 SimonSpear

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:50 PM

I like the idea of office furniture Thani! Just a shame all the stickers fell off after 15 dives.... :(

All joking aside the FS100 / Genesis has been used as a B camera on a long format broadcast production, but no idea yet if any of the footage from it will actually make the cut and admittedly it was replaced with a different camera pretty rapidly. Such a shame it has SO many flaws when used underwater.

Edited by SimonSpear, 20 August 2013 - 01:56 PM.


#146 SimonSpear

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:23 PM

I'll raise my offer for a Genesis housing: double the aluminium price plus replacement price for a very nice flower vase... Thanks Thani for the interior design tip...


You do realise that we are getting dangerously close to doing a deal here?? :lol:

#147 Pete L

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:23 PM

I feel sorry for amphibico, they must have spent some serious money on the Genesis housing line & looks like very little return.

That's a shame because I was hoping the FS700 was going to be a great camera:(


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#148 peterbkk

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:32 PM

Underwater housing manufacturing is a challenging business. At the mercy of the camera manufacturers, who seem to change things just they can declare a new model, fickle users and high manufacturing costs, I have no idea how any of them make any money.

But, salvation is on the horizon. Composite materials and 3D printing will revolutionize this business, and a whole bunch of other specialized manufacturing businesses, in the next few years.

All you need is a standard controls model (LANC) or the ability to reverse-engineer a remote-control system, a standard set of ports and port mounting system and the rest can be "printed" on demand, enabling very small productions runs with minimal setup costs.

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Peter

#149 CheungyDiver

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:37 PM

Peter

3D printing would also mean anybody could just take a blueprint to a corner shop with a 3D printer and print themselves a housing...hee heh ...Even a complete new camera. Okay too far fetch now. There was even a 3D printed gun that has cause quite a stir in the US recently.

 

Keeping it water tight would be a problem. All the 3D printed stuff now is porous. May be when they could print o-rings too...LOL


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#150 peterbkk

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:55 PM

Peter
3D printing would also mean anybody could just take a blueprint to a corner shop with a 3D printer and print themselves a housing...hee heh ...Even a complete new camera. Okay too far fetch now. There was even a 3D printed gun that has cause quite a stir in the US recently.
 
Keeping it water tight would be a problem. All the 3D printed stuff now is porous. May be when they could print o-rings too...LOL


Maybe a bit far-fetched, but maybe not. We have no idea how fast and far this 3D printng innovation can go. There are scientists playing with 3D printing human cells using the patient's DNA for skin or organ replacement...

When you say that the 3D printed stuff is porous, you are talking about current "home use" 3D printers which use a cheap plastic filament material. Good for prototyping or, at best, making molds. But, even today, industrial 3D printers can build additive structures using metal, glass, ceramics and, of course, composite plastics. For example, Boeing is already printing a few hundred aircraft parts. In a couple of years, we will see 3D printed shoes that fit perfectly in all dimensions.

To quote a recent McKinsey report, "3D printing is perfect for producing complex, low volume, highly customizable products." Sounds like underwater housings to me...

#151 CheungyDiver

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 12:16 AM

Hi Peter

 

Agreed. There are different level of sophistication with additive technology. To make metal ones and also could withstand pressure the box has to be one sophisticated mama. Yes you can do 3D printing even for aircraft parts and automobile parts. Have you check the price of these printers and laser sintering machines ?  I have a cheapo plastic filament printer at my workshop but it still cost me a few grand. Each PVC filament coil cost over 200 USD and prints about two housin size objects. I am also using one at work that uses powder and I could print plastic models of skyscrapers in full colours. At USD 150 a pop due to amount of material used. Technology in this area is definitely moving at advance speed. May be one day we could just print a cheese burger from a box the size of a microwave oven. LOL


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#152 peterbkk

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 01:30 AM

Hi Peter

 

Agreed. There are different level of sophistication with additive technology. To make metal ones and also could withstand pressure the box has to be one sophisticated mama. Yes you can do 3D printing even for aircraft parts and automobile parts. Have you check the price of these printers and laser sintering machines ?

 

Remember when photocopiers were too expensive for small companies.  Copying service bureaus started up.  We will see the same thing in 3D printing.  A service centre, maybe specialising in one or more materials, will provide 3D printing capabilities on a pay-per-use basis.  So, Mr Housing Designer will design the housing in 3D software, print a prototype to test the shape and functionality then email the design to a 3D printing bureau who will cut a test production version. Once proven, the Housing Designer can sign up some customers. So, apart from the design, prototype and a test model, no production costs are incurred until the customer places the order.   And the customer's order can be customised to their spec.  A brave new world for the housing industry - and not far away.  A pioneer could get started tomorrow.  You?


Edited by peterbkk, 21 August 2013 - 01:31 AM.


#153 CheungyDiver

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:05 AM

Hi Peter

 

Two or three mill seed money and then matched by gov. grant then maybe but business model will be to sell "hello Kitty" type trinkets and maybe 3D housing on the side. Faster ROI and have some fun at the same time :)

 

Actually interior decoration sounds much more viable right now. LOL


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#154 SimonSpear

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:41 AM

I feel sorry for amphibico, they must have spent some serious money on the Genesis housing line & looks like very little return.

That's a shame because I was hoping the FS700 was going to be a great camera:(

 

I feel some sorrow for Amphibico about the FS100 housing because they would not have known initially about the issues (assuming they didn't learn from their previous experience with the NXCAM range which has since come to light), but I have absolutely zero sympathy with them with regard to their subsequent handling of the situation or for the FS700 housing.

 

To recap from day 1 I had issues using the Gain control which was advertised accessible through the pistol grips when it was not.  Also as I was one of the first people to get the FS100 housing underwater I reported back to them in detail the issues that I had encountered with the camera, which they basically ignored and showed zero interest in finding out more about.

 

If you look back through this thread you will see comments from Amphibico from fairly recently where they are still claiming the poor results are due to a 'steep learning curve with a S35 sensor' and that you can get fantastic results from the FS100.  They also posted links to footage which (not beating around the bush) is awful and shows many of the issues that we have been talking about!!  Truly bizarre.

 

I've used Amphibico housings before but this is the first one that I have owned and I have been very disappointed with the aftersales backup.  After only 15 dives my Genesis housing died and needed a new circuit board.  It was sent back to Amphibico along with a list of numerous other issues that had cropped up after only 15 dives and which should have been fixed under warranty.  Amphibico returned the housing to me with a new circuit board but without addressing any of the other problems.

 

After mine (and others) comments regarding the FS100 and others comments regarding the FS700 Amphibico carried on regardless with the FS700 housing when they knew in advance that there were issues with the camera and using it underwater.  I know of at least 2 manufacturers who were really keen to produce a FS700 housing but decided not to on the basis of this thread right here on Wetpixel after reading about the issues that we were encountering when using the FS100 / FS700 underwater. 

 

With all the evidence suggesting that you'd be better off taking down a GoPro1 than a FS100 you have to ask why Amphibico carried on with the development of the FS700 housing.   It truly baffles me. 

 

So do I have sympathy for Amphibico?  No.  The only sympathy I have is for the customers who spent a fortune on a housing only to find out that the camera is crippled when shooting underwater.

 

Cheers, Simon



#155 r4e

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 10:54 AM

There are obviously some noteworthy shortcomings when using FS100/FS700 especially under low light conditions such as dim ambient blue or green light a bit deeper. There have been some encouraging sample clips from shallow waters and artificially light scenes. I for one, was considering this camera and housing to be a possible upgrade path for my kit. An equally interesting camera would have been Canon C100, but, none of the major housing manufacturers showed interest in this despite my direct enquiries. Obviously, the BM and ML announcements stirred the waters thereafter.

 

I still think there might be potential to use this camera for shallow water ambient light footage, articially lit macro video, caves and deep wrecks without ambient light. With the advances of high powered LEDs there still might be a useful niche for this camera/housing combo. Hopefully somebody will be brave enough and prove the point. Although one would need to be careful to avoid possible internal reflections...

 

As a positive side, it seems that all FS100 housing owners are pleased enough to value their housings higher than the going rate of double the aluminium price plus value of a very nice flower vase plus P&P... Atleast nobody has contacted me.


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#156 SimonSpear

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 02:00 PM

I've used the FS100 in shallow water and the results were ok, but still no where near as good as they should be when compared to 'lesser' spec cameras which outperform it in the same situation/conditions.

Many cameras perform well in good lighting, but the FS100 is supposed to be king of the low light cameras (and it is topside) which is why I decided to get it housed in the first place. I do keep trying it out in new conditions from time to time so you never know one day I may come across the magic formula!

Cheers, Simon

P.S. I also think the C100 could have been a cracking camera underwater.

#157 Pete L

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 04:08 PM

Hi Simon, I agree that amphibico's customer service speaks volumes about their ethics & I certainly won't be in a hurry to buy any of their products BUT I feel for them having spent no doubt a lot of money & time on the genesis line & it is destined for failure.
That said though, didn't they nearly close business some time ago & were bought out?
With the decisions they are making now & the lack of customer service, I wonder how much longer they will be around?
In such a niche market as this, can you really drop the ball & expect your business to flourish?

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#158 Drew

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 02:25 AM

Yes the problem with the FS series halo issue is that it hasn't diagnosed yet. This means even if there is a RAWrecorder like the Odyssey 7Q, if the issue isn't the video compression or WB algorithm, then it won't be solvedby going to RAW.
It would be nice if the manufacturers tested for the cause, since they have the resources and need to do so.
Unfortunately though, with the Odyssey being basically a touch screen monitor, I doubt there will be.a housing for it.

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#159 thani

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:55 AM

What really upset me the most is the ignorance of Sony. I know as an underwater society we do not represent a significant revenue segment. However, the lack of reaction from Sony, tells me a lot about their support, culture and values.
When some of us approached Sony for support, the least we expect is a courtesy. The problem might not be solvable for the current FS100/700 models. It might be beyond software fixing. But showing courtesy and that they listen would really counts and make a difference.

Here is why Sony should pay attention:
> Despite the fact that underwater videographers do not represent a big number, their work is big. Because the underwater world is a fascinating world and yet to be discovered, associating your brand with it is a huge opportunity for a corporate brand & image;

> Most of the underwater videographers are land videographers as well, Sony should not lose their loyalty;

> Many of us are decision makers for different Sony "product lines" whether corporate, household or consumer related.;

> And finally, the competition is becoming very stiff across all the Sony product lines and thus the voice of the customer matters and being a customer oriented brand is a game changer.

I am in the IT industry and I would like to share two little thoughts that made a difference in my opinion for two big corporates:

1) I recall IBM had it all and until late 80s it was untouchable. They were so ignorant that customers had to run after them. They continued being ignorant until competitors who were more customer oriented came to the scene and started getting easy business. Yes, big blue still exists, still big, but they could have been really much more bigger and could have maintained an "image" that would be second to none.

2) At the time when Apple has invented their ecosystem and had no competition at all, I bought an app for less $2nfrom a developer other than apple from the store app . The app worked but did not deliver the claimed functionality. I wrote an email to Apple customer care. To my surprise I received an immediate reply. And more than one support agent interacted with me until they confirmed with me that I got my big $2 investment back. That was really amazing to me. How could Apple entertain my request among billions of download and among hundreds of millions of customers. Wow. I truly remain loyal to Apple.

Would Sony care to listen?!!!
Best Regards,
Thani

#160 Marcos Melo

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 06:03 AM

(What I can say now is that I´m moving to Red Scarlet-X, probably. But all the money that I spent with Genesis+FS100 was gone for nothing. I don´t know if Sony is doing some research to update the firmware to solve the color separation etc. I hope so.
In the first day shooting in Sulawesi, the Genesis left grip button came out and I couldn´t shoot almost anything. Now I sent it to Amphibico to repair, but I really want to sell this equipment and go for another rig.)
 
Hi Marcos
 
If you don't mind the bulk and weight the Red One MX could be another option. Plenty of used gear but in good condition. Quite a few Red One MX and housings around and prices are less than half or quarter of what it was first launched. Still a good 4.5K cinema camera capable of 100fps at 2K. Can't do that with Scarlet. Although the Red Scarlet  X does have an upgrade path to Scarlet Dragon. If that is anything like the Epic Dragon.... well we don't know yet.
 
Good luck with your choices.
 
regards
David

Thank you for your input, David. Still looking for something good. I saw a nice footage from Vince (Wakatobi) with his PMW-200. Amazing images in natural light. Regards,

 

Marcos Melo







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