Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Sony FS100 white balance at depth

Sony FS100 Amphibico Genesis White Balance

  • Please log in to reply
188 replies to this topic

#161 Marcos Melo

Marcos Melo

    Starfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brazil
  • Interests:water

Posted 26 October 2013 - 06:13 AM

 

I feel some sorrow for Amphibico about the FS100 housing because they would not have known initially about the issues (assuming they didn't learn from their previous experience with the NXCAM range which has since come to light), but I have absolutely zero sympathy with them with regard to their subsequent handling of the situation or for the FS700 housing.

 

To recap from day 1 I had issues using the Gain control which was advertised accessible through the pistol grips when it was not.  Also as I was one of the first people to get the FS100 housing underwater I reported back to them in detail the issues that I had encountered with the camera, which they basically ignored and showed zero interest in finding out more about.

 

If you look back through this thread you will see comments from Amphibico from fairly recently where they are still claiming the poor results are due to a 'steep learning curve with a S35 sensor' and that you can get fantastic results from the FS100.  They also posted links to footage which (not beating around the bush) is awful and shows many of the issues that we have been talking about!!  Truly bizarre.

 

I've used Amphibico housings before but this is the first one that I have owned and I have been very disappointed with the aftersales backup.  After only 15 dives my Genesis housing died and needed a new circuit board.  It was sent back to Amphibico along with a list of numerous other issues that had cropped up after only 15 dives and which should have been fixed under warranty.  Amphibico returned the housing to me with a new circuit board but without addressing any of the other problems.

 

After mine (and others) comments regarding the FS100 and others comments regarding the FS700 Amphibico carried on regardless with the FS700 housing when they knew in advance that there were issues with the camera and using it underwater.  I know of at least 2 manufacturers who were really keen to produce a FS700 housing but decided not to on the basis of this thread right here on Wetpixel after reading about the issues that we were encountering when using the FS100 / FS700 underwater. 

 

With all the evidence suggesting that you'd be better off taking down a GoPro1 than a FS100 you have to ask why Amphibico carried on with the development of the FS700 housing.   It truly baffles me. 

 

So do I have sympathy for Amphibico?  No.  The only sympathy I have is for the customers who spent a fortune on a housing only to find out that the camera is crippled when shooting underwater.

 

Cheers, Simon

 

Simon, I agree. I sent my genesis to Amphibico from Brazil (where I live) for repairing, but the Canadian customs put $600 on taxes (?!) of a product MADE IN CANADA BY THEM, they payed the taxes without telling me anything, and they wanted to charge ME this $600 "because I didn´t have written that the product was made in Canada etc - which is not true). So, I decided to give my beloved Genesis in exchange to these $600.00 . I really don´t care, I spent a lot of money in this rig, travelling and diving, with no good results. Amphibico, never more.



#162 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 26 October 2013 - 07:06 AM

In a couple of years time, we will all be shooting top-quality underwater video with our iPhone 7S.

 

In sunlight, the footage from the iPhone 5S is amazing, for what it is...



#163 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10642 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 26 October 2013 - 02:35 PM

Marcos, I don't know what the circumstances are with your case and I'm sorry you've had such issues, but to be fair, Amphibico (or any other company) can't be held to pay customs duties.  That's the unfortunate part of dealing with a manufacturer in Canada (or whatever country with strict importation duties).  However, if there is some exemption for origin country goods, then it may have been possible to appeal on your behalf.  I recently had a friend who sent his car from Indonesia to LA for modification and then sent back.  US imports on cars that don't fit DOT regulation is a pain.  However, the modification company (and I) appealed and waded through the paperwork to get an exemption. Now I'm not sure you're not the first one to have that issue with Amphibico, but it may not be feasible for them to do that on a daily basis if it's a long drawn out bureaucratic process! Sorry but it's unfortunately how it works.

I had it the other way round. I had to send a pair of strobes back to Germany.  The germans wanted to charge duty, so the strobe company refused receipt without notifying me and it was returned (thus charging me for the return handling).  Then I had to resend the strobes, costing me over $800 in overnight fees, because the strobe company didn't want to pay for duty and charge me for it.  It's probably an accounting thing as well. 


Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#164 r4e

r4e

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 141 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southern Finland

Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:04 PM

I know of at least 2 manufacturers who were really keen to produce a FS700 housing but decided not to on the basis of this thread right here on Wetpixel after reading about the issues that we were encountering when using the FS100 / FS700 underwater. 

Looking at recent product announcements, there seems to be a new manufacturer who might not have read this thread...


vimeo.com/r4e

http://www.cerella.fi for the Underwater Photographer and Videographer

 


#165 Nick Hope

Nick Hope

    Sperm Whale

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1984 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:00 AM

Yep, Subal (towards the bottom of Adam's report). This would be their first video housing, wouldn't it? Unlucky choice of camera to house first.

 

Edit: Although, to be fair, the camera should still be OK for macro, slomo, night diving, cave diving, and anywhere you're not trying to white balance in ambient blue/green. Their 150m-rated tech version is interesting.


Edited by Nick Hope, 07 November 2013 - 02:04 AM.


#166 SimonSpear

SimonSpear

    Orca

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:16 AM

I filmed an event a few weeks ago where they had lots of pink and blue LED lighting and the images from the FS100 displayed many of the same issues that we see underwater.  There were not any lens 'halos' but we did see a massive oversaturation in the image even on flat profiles and a workable dynamic range seemed to disappear entirely with huge areas of blown out highlights and underexposed lowlights.  This is almost exactly what we see underwater. 

 

Interestingly we also had a PMW200, Blackmagic Cinema Camera and 7D on the shoot and none of the others had any issues of note with this lighting, other than what you would expect from a challenging low light environment to shoot in.   I'm thinking that it is obviously something to do with predominitely blue lighting (like you would find UW) that freaks the camera out way beyond what could be deemed acceptable. 

 

Nick I think the FS100/700 would still be great for super macro, but for bog standard macro where you probably can't light your entire scene then you are always going to have nasty things happening with the image outside of the lit area.  Still admittedly that is nowhere near as fatal as WA ambient light shooting, so it could have a role still if anyone wants to chance it and it should work ok on night dives! 

 

I've seen quite a bit of footage online from people who claim to have achieved good results, but when I look at it I can't for the life of me understand how they can say that as it almost always looks awful and even when it looks ok you know that a different (similar priced) camera would have given way better results.  New footage seems to have dried up entirely of late, which is a shame as I'd love to see if someone one day has a solution for this!  One thing I've never done is use it for lit macro shooting, but sadly I don't have the time or patience with it anymore to persevere!

 

Cheers, Simon


Edited by SimonSpear, 07 November 2013 - 03:29 AM.


#167 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:43 AM


Here is a company that, foolishly, does not read WetPixel threads:

http://www.aditech-u...-nex-fs700.html

#168 SimonSpear

SimonSpear

    Orca

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:46 PM

I just read the DEMA coverage and see that (if reported accurately) Amphibico are now claiming that the issues with the FS100 are similar to those found with the EPIC / Scarlet...... oh my the mind boggles about where these statements come from !!

RED have always had an issue with a magenta colour cast in underwater footage, but this can be graded out with some care especially as you are shooting in RAW, while on the other hand the footage from the FS100 is utter garbage and how on Earth you draw even a loose comparison between the two is completely beyond me! I really don't want to keep bashing but come on please this is bordering on a deliberately deceitful statement!

#169 CheungyDiver

CheungyDiver

    Tiger Shark

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 625 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Lots. I take things apart, modify things and make things.

Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:27 PM

Comparing apples with oranges.


Proprietor of Scubacam, Singapore. Commercial videocameraman. Also shoot digital stills. I modify and built stuff. I love technology. Camera: Red Epic/ Scarlet and soon Dragon

Email: info@scubacam.com.sg

http://www.scubacam.com.sg/


#170 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10642 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:38 PM

For a dedicated underwater camera, the FS series undoubtedly suffers from white balance problems with the EXMOR sensor at depth.  However, I'm guessing that the sudden influx of housings is a response to demand.  I think the 240fps feature and 4k expandability, and the clean video output out of water is fueling this demand.  I know several camera peeps who have gone out and bought the FS700 for personal camera outfits.  Interestingly, they are happy with the image coming out of the FS700 regardless of the color issue:

 

I've seen quite a bit of footage online from people who claim to have achieved good results, but when I look at it I can't for the life of me understand how they can say that as it almost always looks awful and even when it looks ok you know that a different (similar priced) camera would have given way better results.

Good is very subjective.  Many people don't MWB but deal with coloring in post, to maintain the "blue" water look.

 

 

Here is a company that, foolishly, does not read WetPixel threads

The market demand is always somewhat strange.  Obviously, there are people who don't find this MWB problem an issue.


Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#171 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:32 PM


The market demand is always somewhat strange. Obviously, there are people who don't find this MWB problem an issue.


Applying Occam's Razor, a more likely explanation is that the buyers are not looking beyond the marketing material and simply don't know about the problem.

Regards
Peter

#172 CheungyDiver

CheungyDiver

    Tiger Shark

  • Industry
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 625 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Lots. I take things apart, modify things and make things.

Posted 09 November 2013 - 05:50 PM

comparing pears with bananas…..lol…..this discussion is a little mixed mixed up. Let me try and throw in more confusion.

 

It does not matter if the fs700 could do 240 fps and 4k footage with recorder if the footage UW is 'shite' then it is just that. That issue has been discussed nearly to death. The color science and white balance is just not compatible for UW with ambient light. Sony has done zilch to fix it. To them the camera sells well for top side. So what problem?

 

Underwater housing manufacturers  must know this is a popular camera. There is something else too …..video lights so one do not have to just rely on ambient light  which could lit subject close by or as fill light for close wide angle shots. Macro should okay too. With lights pumping out gazillion lumens and cheap lithium batteries from China there are now options to bring these down on every dive. Its not ideal but if the shooter does not mind shite ambient footage then yeah go break a leg.

 

Looking at some of the footage sent to me from friends taken with video lights the footage looked not bad. Not fantastic either. Some are happy with that for UW at least. Certainly nothing like footage from PNW 200 or even a ML 5DMIII raw. Never mind from a RED. The FS700 however is fantastic above water. Avoid shooting at LED lights and you are home and dry. It is a very popular top side camera.


Proprietor of Scubacam, Singapore. Commercial videocameraman. Also shoot digital stills. I modify and built stuff. I love technology. Camera: Red Epic/ Scarlet and soon Dragon

Email: info@scubacam.com.sg

http://www.scubacam.com.sg/


#173 peterbkk

peterbkk

    Great Hammerhead

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Interests:Scuba Diving, Photographry Underwater Video.

Posted 09 November 2013 - 06:03 PM


Underwater housing manufacturers must know this is a popular camera.


But we should question the ethics (or intelligence) of a housing manufacturer that is NOW releasing an underwater housing for a camera that will never perform well underwater.

You can sort of forgive the early-adopter housing manufacturers as they could not have known about the problem. And, you really can't expect them to fix something that's unfixable. Nor are the housing manufacturers financially robust enough to give a refund.

And, we should not be surprised that Sony is not interested in a problem that only effects a small part of their user base and is probably not fixable in firmware. They can't even express sympathy because that might attract class-action. At best, you can hope that they are listening and have told the engineers to make sure that it is not a problem in the next model. Any large electronics engineering company would behave the same.

Symptomatic of our times...

Regards
Peter
  • r4e likes this

#174 SimonSpear

SimonSpear

    Orca

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 10 November 2013 - 07:58 AM

I know several camera peeps who have gone out and bought the FS700 for personal camera outfits.  Interestingly, they are happy with the image coming out of the FS700 regardless of the color issue:
 
Good is very subjective.  Many people don't MWB but deal with coloring in post, to maintain the "blue" water .


It's not just a MWB issue though Drew, there are many other issues including lens 'halos', super saturated image, blown out highlights/underexposed lowlights (loss of dynamic range), digital noise in highlights etc etc etc.

If you know people who are using the FS range and are genuinely getting results that they are happy with then please ask them to pop by here and let us know their secret!!

#175 r4e

r4e

    Wolf Eel

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 141 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southern Finland

Posted 10 November 2013 - 08:07 AM

But we should question the ethics (or intelligence) of a housing manufacturer that is NOW releasing an underwater housing for a camera that will never perform well underwater.

You can sort of forgive the early-adopter housing manufacturers as they could not have known about the problem. And, you really can't expect them to fix something that's unfixable. Nor are the housing manufacturers financially robust enough to give a refund.

And, we should not be surprised that Sony is not interested in a problem that only effects a small part of their user base and is probably not fixable in firmware. They can't even express sympathy because that might attract class-action. At best, you can hope that they are listening and have told the engineers to make sure that it is not a problem in the next model. Any large electronics engineering company would behave the same.

Symptomatic of our times...

Well said, Peter.


vimeo.com/r4e

http://www.cerella.fi for the Underwater Photographer and Videographer

 


#176 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10642 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:16 AM

Simon
I understand the issues but my point is that "good" results are subjective.  I've directed the guys to this thread and they still went ahead.  They aren't as worried about these issues because they want the other features.  I've even directed the new manufacturers to this thread.  

It's not just a MWB issue though Drew, there are many other issues including lens 'halos', super saturated image, blown out highlights/underexposed lowlights (loss of dynamic range), digital noise in highlights etc etc etc.

If you know people who are using the FS range and are genuinely getting results that they are happy with then please ask them to pop by here and let us know their secret!!


Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#177 SimonSpear

SimonSpear

    Orca

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 11 November 2013 - 12:11 PM

I'd understand that Drew if it were possible to get a pleasing blue water colour out of the camera by not using MWB, but sadly even that appears to be beyond it...

#178 Drew

Drew

    The Controller

  • Video Expert
  • 10642 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:GPS is not reliable in South East Asian seas

Posted 12 November 2013 - 09:06 AM

Well if those people who don't do their research and/or ignore the findings of this thread, then it's their issue.  We aren't sure whether it's a sensor issue or something else.  Once the RAW recorders are tested for the issues, then we'll know for sure.


Drew
Moderator
"Journalism is what someone else does not want printed, everything else is public relations."

"I was born not knowing, and have only had a little time to change that here and there.


#179 Marcos Melo

Marcos Melo

    Starfish

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brazil
  • Interests:water

Posted 30 November 2013 - 08:00 AM

Marcos, I don't know what the circumstances are with your case and I'm sorry you've had such issues, but to be fair, Amphibico (or any other company) can't be held to pay customs duties.  That's the unfortunate part of dealing with a manufacturer in Canada (or whatever country with strict importation duties).  However, if there is some exemption for origin country goods, then it may have been possible to appeal on your behalf.  I recently had a friend who sent his car from Indonesia to LA for modification and then sent back.  US imports on cars that don't fit DOT regulation is a pain.  However, the modification company (and I) appealed and waded through the paperwork to get an exemption. Now I'm not sure you're not the first one to have that issue with Amphibico, but it may not be feasible for them to do that on a daily basis if it's a long drawn out bureaucratic process! Sorry but it's unfortunately how it works.

I had it the other way round. I had to send a pair of strobes back to Germany.  The germans wanted to charge duty, so the strobe company refused receipt without notifying me and it was returned (thus charging me for the return handling).  Then I had to resend the strobes, costing me over $800 in overnight fees, because the strobe company didn't want to pay for duty and charge me for it.  It's probably an accounting thing as well. 

Thanks, Drew. I probably overreacted. But I went to DEMA and tried to solve our problems. But no FS100 anymore for me. I´ll try PMW-200. It seems Simon Spears has one. I´d like to know what he (or anyone) thinks about it. Only Gates has a housing for it. Sony launched PMW-300 and I checked one today. No housings yet.



#180 SimonSpear

SimonSpear

    Orca

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 03 December 2013 - 07:46 AM

Hi Marcos

 

I've had the PMW200 / Gates since March this year and so far it has been used for 3 stock trips and a 3-4 month shoot for a 60 min broadcast documentary.  

 

The quality is superb straight out of the camera with no external recorders required and the Gates housing is wonderful to use.  The only slight issue I have had with it for underwater use is that the PMW200 does not have component out for the external monitor so if like me you had a EM43 monitor from a previous housing then you'll only get a low res image displaying on it.   Gates now have a high res HDMI monitor,  but I've not had an opportunity to use that personally.  

 

It is extremely difficult to say anything other than wonderful things about Gates.  There is a very good reason why the whole broadcast industry relies on them and the PMW200 is a cracking camera.  Unless anything remarkable and affordable happens in the immediate future with 4K then I'd say it is a great choice.  Hope this helps!

 

Cheers, Simon







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Sony FS100, Amphibico Genesis, White Balance